Pledges, Pre-orders, and the Kickstarter Trap

Transcript

You're listening to No Plot Only Lore, a podcast about games and the tables we play them at. Your DMs tonight and every

night are Josh and Chris. You can find us on all podcast platforms or check us out at noplotonly lore.com. If you like

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Welcome back to no ploton lore this week brought to you by crowdfunding.

Crowd crowdfunding. It's a way to get money that you don't deserve. Do you have too much money and you want

to just kind of park it somewhere indefinitely. Crowdfunding the perfect place to just throw it out the window.

Literally never been a problem for me. Yeah. I also don't fund can quickfund

crowd start crowd start things. We're starting a new service here at no

plot only lore crowd fun whatever start kick.

It's probably actually a great way to make money cuz every time every time I see a new like right-wing grifter

online, they've got a crowdfunding thing on a platform I've never heard of and it's got like $3 million kicked into it.

So, probably the funniest thing about that is that the first thing my head went to

was Grinder, but then I remembered that that isn't a crowdfunding thing. No, it's not.

That's a crowdfunding thing. Okay.

Uh, crowdfunding. Have you ever kickstarted a thing? Yes. Uh, yeah, I have one Kickstarter running

currently. um in that I backed it. They a lot of

them now make use of these like payment plan plat platforms because crowdfunding

has gotten to the point where there is no Kickstarter that is less than $500. Um, no.

Well, yeah, we can get into that specifically later, but all of the board game projects that are kind of worth

backing, you wind up needing to back for $45$500 to get everything, right?

Insanity for everything, but like I assume that there's like lower tier

there's lower tiers, but like they're a total waste of your time, right? So, because what happens is like

they they put a lot of stuff behind the stretch goals and the lowest tiers won't

qualify for stretch goals. Um, okay. Never mind that like it's like I only kickstart things that I actually like

really enjoy and care about. So, I I have that like this I have that

unfortunate collector completionist urge as it is. Um, but yeah, anyways. So the

the Kickstarter I backed um have you heard of a game called Arcanova?

Uh only through you. Yeah. No, it's so it's it's a zoo game, tilebased, whatever. They they don't

need to Kickstarter. I think they I don't know if they did for the first release or whatever. like they've done

some campaigns, but basically um this this is specifically for like a big box

product that is 3D tiles and tokens and just fancy upgrades for this game that I

really like and have all of anyways. Um but uh yeah, the the grand total on it

came to something in the neighborhood of $475. So, they just broke that up into

installments, which is nice because instead of like eating that to the face at one time, I just throw them 65 bucks

a month. The I have crowdfunded I think a grand

total of two things. Yeah. And one of them was stickers. Yeah.

So, I got some stickers. Yeah. And that cost me five bucks. Yeah. and I forgot that I had done it

and it just kind of arrived in the mail once and I was like, "Ah, cool stickers."

And then the other one I got a PDF out of it and it was like 25 bucks. I can't even imagine spending $400 on a thing

that might not ever arrive. it. No, that's that's the only reason I kickstarted is cuz it 100% will arrive

because Okay. This this is this is a game that is backed by like actual publishing like

Capstone games and stuff like that, which is we're going to get into is is the usage of Kickstarter by people that

don't need to Kickstarter things. Um, but a aside from it, I've only really done a

couple of other things through like I I kickstarted a Tiny Epic game that again

did not need to use Kickstarter, but does routinely. Um, and then I got some

uh some 3D printing files for a tabletop like board game system that kind of

converts existing tables into a a a lord surface setup with, you know, card

holders and token contain compartments and stuff like that. Um, but yeah, like I don't I don't

interact with it a lot. Part of part of the reason that I wanted to do this is I I've through the

one-page RPGs. I've recently started getting involved with other game

designers and one of the things that they were talking about uh fairly heavily was that Kickstarter

is almost a must at this point. Like if you want to get your game to market and you want people to buy it, then doing a

Kickstarter is almost like a a necessity. It's it's a requirement to to

get that handled. And I have so little interaction with that whole world that I

was interested in getting your perspective on it both as a person who has kickstarted things and from the

retail perspective as well of just like cuz because I know one of the things that um is happening quite a bit with this is

that Kickstarters are being used to almost replace the retail model. Mhm.

Um, so like a lot of these games, they'll go to Kickstarter only and then

you'll never actually see them in a game store. Yeah. So, I mean, I can think of a couple of examples, but one in

particular that I really wanted to pick up that I wound up not getting was uh Lords of Atlantis 2, which is like a uh

tabletop moa, which like appealed to me cuz like I you know, I used to play a lot of League of Legends, things like that. I thought it'd be a fun activity

and then there is just no way to get it outside of direct purchase through Kickstarter. Like there and they don't you can't just like go to the website

and buy the game at all. Like the only way to get it was Kickstarter. Um as

someone who does work in brick-andmortar nerd stuff um but is also a huge

consumer of the rest of the hobby. Um, Kickstarter

is in a really weird place for me where it's it feels like it's taken over the entire industry, but in like a really

negative way, in a way that's like harming I think the hobby. Um, I

I love board games and I do consume like uh some podcasts once in a while for

like reviews and context and stuff like that. But the reality is that we went from this like what I would say in the

last like 10 years was like sort of a golden age of board games in in their availability and their publishing

schedule and their their ubiquitousness and the the way the pop culture shifted on things like Katan and Ticket to Ride

and then the whole industry went insane.

um and has basically put the entire cart before

the horse and is trying to harvest money out of it in a really like unhealthy way

that is going to long-term damage their ability to like sustain themselves. Um

they've become like the market is flooded and inaccessible at the same time. It's it's

so strange because the I think the best analogy I can think of is what happened

when um we went from cable to pirating to

Netflix to every everyone has their own subscription service, right? Everyone

wanted to take the biggest piece of the pie that they could and that means that

more and more pies are being left uneaten because nobody knows that

they're there. Um I mean my my first experiences with

Kickstarter were pretty early and pretty negative. Yeah. Like

the the one that I remember most clearly from the early days was the Ouya.

Mhm. where you were going to be able to to play video games on your TV. Um, it was

going to revolutionize gaming and then it turned out to just be like phone games. Yeah. Yeah.

And it wasn't good. It was really bad. Um, I had a friend

kickstart a board game in like 2012, which was like very early in the the

system. And god, the quality of it that showed up at his house made me think, oh, this is just for people who can't

get their game published. Like, it's just this is just a way to like make a

knockoff Chinese version of the board game that they wanted to make. Right. Well, and then Exploding Kittens,

I think, is probably like the the biggest one that kind of took over

everything for a minute, unfortunately. Yeah, it's not the world's best game. And

I So, I I my my kids got me a version of Exploding Kittens for Christmas a couple

years ago. I've played it with them a few times. It's fine. My problem is that that guy

and that company now just crap out a new game every six months and they're all

oatmeal. It is the oatmeal. It's the oatmeal. Yeah. Okay. Um Um

I remember when they were cool. Yeah. Back when he was like sort of counterculture and subversive and then

he got a lot of money and was like I'm just going to be like the most mainstream quasi edgy guy that I can.

There was a hot minute, like this is a weird tangent, but there was there was a hot minute where like comic blogs

Yeah. were big. Yeah. Right. Like between that one and

uh what was that other one called? Oh no.

Ah, her name was like Ali Broski or something. Um, she did the the one about

the um the allotss. Whenever anybody writes a an allot instead of a lot, she

imagines it being like a big hairy creature. I have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, no. Okay. Uh, clackies on the keys

for a second. No, I I'll era for me like he he fell into this like offshoot of web comics

that were like big at the time. Like that was hyperbole and a half. That's what it was called. Okay. No idea what you're

talking about. Okay. Yeah. No, brush. Um

cuz I was reading a lot of web comics at the time and and I thought for a minute that's what his was and then I realized it quickly wasn't. Um it was just

Yeah, it was just a blog. Yeah, just him sort of ranting a little bit and then he put like shitty cat drawings with it. Um and then turns out

they were funny shitty cat drawings. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, they I I'm not saying they were like I when I say

shitty, I mean that like he didn't he's not an artist. He's not there to make art, you know? He was just kind of

They were fighting. Oh [ __ ] He was just his his art was writing and he was just sort of um providing like

examples for his his writing, right? Illustrations in the truest sense.

Anyway, I don't like any of his games. Yeah, there there I I've played that. I've played Throwth Throw Burrito, uh

Poetry for Neanderthalss, like all that crap. There's there's one game that is

just I think the name of it is literally Let's Fight with foam swords and that's it.

My kid saw that one at the bookstore. So, there's there's a bookstore near us

that uh has like a pretty good selection of like more mainstream board games. and

he saw Let's Play with foam swords and I had to like stop him and look at him for a second and be like, "We made foam

swords." We already do this at all.

Like, let me show you a real foam sword. We'll get serious about this. You don't need that.

They're not even that serious. They're just like a pool noodle around some PVC. No, I'm saying we could though. Like, if

you want to fight with foam swords, we're going to fight with foam swords. But yeah, we can we can go get some proper

buffers. Yeah. And uh have at it. But yeah. No, not my not my favorite game

company, but like a lot of mass market appeal, right? A lot of people were reading the oatmeal at the time.

Yeah. And well, what's funny to me is I got people who buy those games every week and have never heard of the oatmeal.

Really? Yeah. They like walked by Dollarama and saw Exploding Minions and were like, "Whoa, is this like that?"

Oh my god. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exploding minions.

Yeah. They'll be like, "Oh, is this like unstable unicorns?" I'm like, "Sure, sure.

I like unstable games." Um, like I I don't necessarily dig all of

their mechanics and they do often feel like they're playing solitire, but I have liked a lot of their games and I

really love their art direction. Sure, that makes one of us. But at any rate, the reason that we are beset by

these games is because of his wild success on Kickstarter, which 100% was

due to his established audience from the oatmeal where he said, "Hey, I want to

try something new using my style. Will you guys come with me? I'm going to take

this risk, but I need some insurance, and that insurance is your pre-orders."

Well, it's interesting how that's flipped, too. Yeah. Right. Where like early on you had the platform, you had

this idea, you were going to try and bring it to market, but you needed to make sure that the audience was there.

And that's that's kind of what Kickstarter was for, right? And I I would argue that that's still what Kickstarter is for, but not everybody's

using it like that. No. Um, but like now,

in order to be able to sell games, you have to market through Kickstarter. Yes.

essentially, which is just bizarre. Yes and no. It's so strange. Um, my

feeling is that the industry has seen this opportunity to cut out the

distributors, your your asthma days, your groers, your whoever, and keep more of that money for

themselves by selling things for retail prices direct to consumer. and the

right the load of doing that

um has been just placed on Kickstarter. So they don't have to have their own web store. They don't have to do any real

advertising other than like pushing the Kickstarter campaign to their socials because Kickstarter is all about

discoverability. Um and now they get to have their lunch and

eat it too. So, they get to do this first run where they make a bunch of money and then they can turn around and

still send it to the retail stores. Um, if they even want to,

if they want to, they they get they get the the luxury of doing both. Um,

sometimes it works out. There's some games that have both had like like Exploding

Kittens or or Gloom Haven have had big Kickstarter successes and then

transition to retail releases and are still going strong. Um there's a lot

that just I don't know what show up at all. Yeah. Yeah. And that so that's I I hate

to say that that's like a misconception, but it's definitely a stank that's still

on there for me from day one is that so many projects got kickstarted out of

like optimism, I guess, and hope for a new future of commerce and either they

were just scams and people took money and ran or they were quasi scams where people got

in way over their heads and overcommitted and had no idea what their actual costs were or they had every good

intention and roughly knew what they were doing and then the pandemic hit and suddenly making everything in China became impossible.

Um and I think there's also

people kind of sucking at things. Yeah. like that that I think is the the most common

reason that this sort of thing happens is that like you have a cool idea

and like you you run into this with writing all the time. The whole idea of like running up to George RR Martin and

being like I have the best idea for a book and George RR Martin is like that is not the hard part.

Yeah. Everything that comes after that is the hard part. like sitting down and writing

a book and getting it edited and doing the work is the hard part. And I think that Kickstarter, especially early on,

kind of sold itself as an idea machine, right? Like you have a good idea

and you don't even have to make it and people will come and give you money for it. Right. Right. And

and there's no repercussions if you [ __ ] it up. Well, yeah. Okay. So that this is

something that is going to be kind of a common theme I think through this discussion is that like I

remember what Kickstarter is for. Mhm. And it is not purchasing a product.

No, Kickstarter is backing an idea. Yeah, it's gambling.

Whether or not that idea ever actually gets made. Yeah, it's you still backed the idea.

I like this person and their ideas. I hope this works out. It's it's an infinite hope machine.

That is not how it is being treated. Not at all. Um by either the backers who are

treating it very much like they've purchased a thing, right? And I I think that is also very

similar to the idea of like you you know that thing that people do where they pick up the first book of a

series that isn't done yet and then in their mind they've created a

contract with the author that they are going to continue to read books and you have a responsibility to provide me with

book. Speaking of George RR Martin, speaking of George R. Martin, right?

I I I think Kickstarter has kind of that same sensibility of like backers treat

pledges as though they are a purchase. Right. Right. They are misaligning their

expectations with what is actually going to be delivered because the responsibility to

deliver is actually kind of nothing. Right. Well, and part of the problem is that and I I don't blame the backers for

this, but the number of campaigns that

are happening on Kickstarter that literally are just pre-sales,

right? Like the one the one that I backed for Gamellin, I backed because I knew they're going to make this [ __ ]

product. It's coming out like it's happening 100%. I'm just going to get it

six months before the retail stores do. Right. You see it all the time too with like the the really low funding limits,

right? Like everything is a stretch goal. The the initial funding u like the fully funded 100% thing is

like 500 bucks. Yeah. Yeah. And then the stretch goals are like $7 million. If we get $7 million, then

we'll do this thing, right? And so like that first goal, that initial goal is like instant. You already have it

funded. It's already going to be made. There is a guarantee it's going to get made. And then everything else is stretch goals.

Well, and that's what's funny is that like so you've heard of Wormwood Games.

Uh they make expensive tables. Um they've been running for they ran their

company for a long time on an infinite Kickstarter loop knowing that like we're going to make

this [ __ ] no matter what. We're just seeing how many of them we're going to sell, right? Yeah. And and

they've had some of the biggest Kickstarters of all time, period.

And when that becomes the norm is that giant Kickstarter means this is a real

company that's giving you a thing for sure, it sets an unhealthy expectation. you

know, um, when there's companies out there who I

don't want to say they're abusing it, but they're just they are not aligned with the ideal use

case of Kickstarter. whether it's greed or or just um

savvy business moves to to you know like like I said like collect collect their

share before they spend it you know um well and I feel like maybe it's evolved a bit too right like the the initial

idea of a lot of things evolves and changes over time right like do you do

you remember when Facebook was for looking at the funny post that your friend made from the party last week.

Still trying still trying to live that reality. Yeah. Instead of having to dig through

like 17 pages of like bad minion memes and like hope posting and

they had they had to make a new tab that was just what the [ __ ] are my friends up

to because your home and then they hit it. I know cuz your home feed is just recommended

stuff. It's it's it's nothing to do with you and your life. It's just like things we think you should consume. It's like bad

Reddit. Well, and that's something that I fear about Kickstarter as well. Like I I don't know how prone to this Kickstarter

is, but like there seems to be some algorithm gaming that you can do.

Sure. On the platform. Like for one thing, the 100%ed within 24 hours thing,

that's like a a benchmark now. It's like, okay, well, like we we're going to do this, so we just need to game our

initial uh our initial ask to make sure that we hit that number

because we need to used to be like a a sign that this was going to be a big cool popular thing and

so like we you put eyeballs on those things because people are excited about them. Yeah. But like riding that hype train

has become so gified and commodified that it's kind of starting to turn into

a YouTube algorithm. Yep. And it's horrifying to see that.

Yeah. Like on anything. I'm so done with YouTube algorithm. Oh, 100% 100%.

But yeah, no, I I I wonder how much of the change in the way that

people are using Kickstarter is just like the organic difference that comes

from the age of the platform and people using it in new and innovative ways. And then those new and innovative ways

become like the standard for the thing. Yeah. Versus like how much of it is people

being greedy [ __ ] and just trying to game it for the most possible money that they can get. Right.

I at this point I have to feel like it's probably like at best 50/50, but I'm

almost certain that there's just a lot of greedy [ __ ] who one or two people were like, "Hey, look

at these cool Kickstarter tricks." And then they were like, "Fantastic. I'm gonna abuse that.

Well, and like God, there there are so many problems. Yeah. Yes.

Transparency is a big one. Oh, man. Just like the lack of updates on some of

these projects is incredible. Well, one one that we were talking about a little

earlier that has like nothing to do with games and gaming, uh, but it's one of the ones that I kind of have a

touchstone with is, uh, a comic creator, Lexi Douglas. Um,

did a Kickstarter, made like a ton of money, posted six pages, and then disappeared.

I mean, you say a ton, but like that's a very small amount of money to ruin your life over. It's a life-changing amount

of money for me, though. Sure. If somebody were to suddenly show up and just drop like 40k in my lap, I think

I'd be having a pretty good day. Did she even get 40? I thought it was like 10.

I don't remember what she made. Um, not important. Anyways, not important. Anyway, she got a bunch

of money and she disputed. But like the thing that people got really upset about, and I've seen this on a few other Kickstarters, is just like the lack of

communication, right? that comes from it where it's just like are you still alive? Is this

project still a go? Yeah. Have you canceled it? Like if you canceled it, please just let us know so we can stop hoping.

Yeah. So like so there's two hilarious

opposite ends of the spectrum of this. First of all, I think part of the reason that Wormwood was able to run so many

Kickstarters so successfully for so long is that they combined what they were doing on Kickstarter with

their um their YouTube channel where they straight up said, "This is Wormwood

Gaming. We are going to have you join us through this entire

process and be so open about the logistical struggles, the sourcing

struggles, you know, the design process, everything that goes into making these

Kickstarters. the the only Kickstarters that they've had that had some problems

were when they worked with outside sources

that weren't as open like the the the dice Kickstarter that they did with a

creator who wasn't as upfront with how they were, you know, producing these

things or their process on them. And it wound up being this big nightmare where it's like, why are you keeping the fact that you do have this work in China from

us, you know? um right like they don't have a problem with working with China. It's just like tell

us what's going on so we can talk to people directly, you know. Um on the other end like my

there's there's Yeah, I do I do have a question about that though. Sure. Sure. Sure. Um how how important do you think it is

to like skew towards pleasing the backers versus

finishing a product and like making something good and bringing it to market?

I I Could you elaborate on that? Because I don't I don't see those as competing

ideals. Just like the

hitting all of your stretch goals and like sending things to your backers that aren't necessarily the game. like all of

the work that goes into the backer pleasing side of stuff that ends up

causing delays in publication and stopping the thing from like getting out

and maybe even like not getting out at all because you spent so much time sending people sticker books that you

haven't actually finished your goddamn game. Oh, so never send us a sticker book ever. Like

what you should be as far as stickers I got. Yeah. As far as pleasing your backers go, like

the transparenc all of your work should be ultimately towards delivering what you promise to deliver. And all of the

communication from Wormwood through their channel is in service of that

narrative or that that that ideal, right? where it's like, hey, these are the things we promised to make. Let me

tell you, like, yeah, there's the first round of tables for like the modular tables were like, I think it was a year

delayed, right? But you got to walk through that whole process with them of,

hey, so we got all this money to make these things. Production is not where it

needs to be to get them out the door on time. What are we going to do to expand production? What are we going to do to

increase efficiency? who were, you know, not just like capable of making more at the same time, but capable of of pushing

them through at a faster rate. You know, it's not like, you know, so you saw how that was

affected in the operational process, in the design process. Um, oh, we need to we we backed all of these specific types

of wood. Well, suddenly we can't get that type of wood because [ __ ] co like the the amount of godamn it co that

happened on that channel was ridiculous. But like and also everywhere.

Yeah, exactly. And you got to hear it not just from them through like a single update once a month on their site, but

you saw it happening and you heard the vendors telling them, "I can't get this to you." Right?

Because reasons. because some idiot didn't know how to drive down a canal and got a ship stuck like things like

that. Um, on the other hand, you've got So, my friend backed this Stellaris

board game. Stellaris, hugely popular video game. He's like, "Cool, I want to

own that." um seemed like, you know, a good Forex game with the

the plan was to have a huge like cardbased system that faithfully recreated a lot

of the stuff from the video game. Um I know I know sounds like Twilight Imperium with so many extra stuffs.

They're they're they're at like 2500 plus cards that are coming in this first. It's Looney Tunes.

Just cancel your [ __ ] week. Like you kind of have like Okay, so my experience with Twilight and Euro is that it is a

weekend endeavor. Yeah, it's a great way to run a weekend with friends. Yeah. And I can't even imagine that but

more complex. Like have you played this Stellaris video game? Yeah. Yeah, I have.

Okay. Imagine taking all of that and turning it into a card game. My friend plays Stellaris regularly.

rarely finishes individual games. Yeah. He like hits

this point where he's like, "All right, I think I've got like overwhelming momentum. We'll just start

a new one." Like, yeah, I'm I'm good. I I know how this is going to go. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like

I feel like the game is going to go that way. I've played the game a few times and every time it seems like my empire is

about to get subjugated by another empire, I'm like, maybe I'm done. Yeah. Um, so

they they raised like $3 million and the plan was to deliver Stellaris Infinite

Legacy quote well before March 2022. Um, how's that going?

That was four years ago. And so they hit that delivery. And they said that everything was fully

developed and play tested. artwork was finalized, manpower scheduled and set aside to make sure shipping happens,

and then nothing. Like you got

you got maybe semianual updates

on what was happening. That was wild. Um that was wild.

They there's I didn't even like justify that though, right? Like as a company, you have that much money.

I think this guy is just terrible at communicating period. Someone interviewed him or met

with him at Gen Con 2022. The guy never reads anything anyone writes on BG or

Kickstarter. He says they made a quote company decision to focus on making

games over communication and seemed proud of that. His like to your point,

his explanation was they could hire a PR person, which would need to be a full-time job with all of the messages

that they get, but it wouldn't bring in as much revenue as hiring another game designer.

Okay, but that's not why you hire a PR person. I know. I know.

You hire a PR person so that you can continue to make money after the thing is out because you handled your PR

correctly. At one point they just said everything's ready to go for October. Did they say a year? No. Um they the

project closed 2030. The the the project had already hit 18

months late. Uh and no like basically people were

writing it off as vaporware. And then they

in 2023, halfway through they started like hiding their Facebook posts that

were like highlighting other projects because everything that they did that was like we still exist. We're making

other things. People were like, "Where's Speaking of George R. Martin?"

Yeah. They every once in a while you get an update and and as of um I think

September of last year they were like hey uh the EU shipping from the Chinese

factory to fulfillment companies was happening before Chinese New Year of 2026.

So maybe maybe the EU will get their stuff now,

but like North America hasn't. Like, who knows where this stuff is going.

No one no one's gotten this game in their hands yet. And it's real quick. We're We're coming up on

time. Real quick. Yeah. What do you think? We need to have a part two of this conversation because there's so much

more to talk about with Kickstarter and the problems. We could. Okay, let's let's do that then. I was about to ask a really broad

question to which there is very likely a um long- winded explanation. Yeah, I I I

I want to touch on how Kickstarter itself is a double-edged sword that often cuts the companies that

use it uh and has forced the closure of at least three

uh publishers that I can think of off the top of my head. Um okay,

never mind the What's that? Let's get real into that next week then.

Yeah, we'll go over that. Um, I think we need to talk about um

the abuse of Kickstarter as a uh more more in depth. The abuse of Kickstarter as a a source of early revenue from

pre-orders. Um, but then we I really want to get into is like how to

make it better. Yeah, I was going to say I think we need to look at some of the positive things because there's tons of disasters. They

get a ton of I mean for every, you know, uh, what have I got? For every

Andromeda's edge, there's a kingdom death monster, you know. So Oh, kingdom.

Yeah. Yeah. We we'll get into part two next week. Hey, thanks for making it all the way

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