Attention Economy and TTRPGs: Are We Krill in the Critical Role Pond?

Hosts Josh and Kris tackle the Attention Economy and its uncomfortable role in the TTRPG space. From recognizing their place as "krill" in the same ecosystem as giants like Critical Role to debating whether the attention economy is "evil," they discuss how DMs can use its tricks—like rewarding quiet moments (the Mrs. Pots dinner scenario)—to keep players engaged and honor their time, without resorting to constant chaos. Plus, a tangent on Telltale's Dispatch and terrible modeling advice from grandmothers.

Transcript

You're listening to No Plot Only Lore, a podcast about games and the tables we play them at. Your DMs tonight and every

night are Josh and Chris. You can find us on all podcast platforms or check us out at noplotonlore.com.

If you like what you hear today, please rate and review the show and share it with everyone you've ever met.

Welcome back to No Plot Only Lore. This week brought to you by your ear holes

like it is every time you listen to us. I guess that's technically true.

We we sometimes joke about having like a listener.

Yeah. But like recently we've we've been going through like the the analytics and stuff and there are literally dozens of you

and a community if you will. Yeah. That's that's super cool. And one

of the things that I realized as I was going through the analytics is that I was going through analytics which means

that I am entrenched in the attention economy. Right. Right. Right. Right. We compete

with eight bajillion other podcasts by heterosexual white men. Um and then

the glut on just that, right? I'm going to take everything else in like just to

to like let people know that we do understand we're two heterosexual white guys who

started a podcast. Like we're aware. Yeah. The irony is not lost on us, but

no, we know what's up. Um but like not not just the competing like the

the fact that we are in the same general vicinity as

like a D20 or uh critical role and like

definitely not on those levels by any stretch of the imagination. No, but in

the same ecosystem, in the same pool.

Are we Are we algae? We are.

I don't want to call us like pawn scum. I prefer to think of us as like bottom feeders.

I was going to go with krill. Ooh, yeah. Just like just like the the tiny little

guys. Yeah. Not even plankton. Krill. Yeah. Cool. So, we we are we are the

tiny tiny crustaceations that are floating around in the same pond as the D20s and the uh the critical roles, man.

Okay, so I played Dispatch last week. Sure.

It was great. I keep hearing things about it. I don't know what it is.

You would hate it. Oh, okay. Never mind. Yeah, it's uh Did

you ever play any of the Telltale games? Uh I am very aware of them. I did not

play them. Uh from what I understood, they were not a thing to be played. They

were essentially a really fancy choose your own adventure.

Yes. And that is exactly Dispatch as well because it's basically the same crew. Okay. But they're making a thing that was

developed by the Critical Role people. like Daggerheart.

No, it was uh like it's a superhero story about like the support team for a

superhero corporation. Oh, I see. Okay. Okay.

You are a person who does not have any superpowers but was working as like an

Iron Man type character. Okay. your Iron Man suit got wrecked

and so you're recruited to work dispatch for that crew.

Okay. And so like you're Yeah. Your your job is to like get superheroes where they're supposed to go

and like have them do jobs and like help them out if they need help. You're you're a glorified like manager for

Yeah. a team of in this case misfit superheroes that are like lightly

reformed villains are okay the the thing I'm thinking of in my mind is have you seen um the

invincible here from soul show are you what's his name the the

government guy kind of nowhere near as cool [Laughter]

like our job working tech support Uhhuh. that but for dispatching superheroes.

Okay, sure that makes sense. So you just you have a desk, you

dispatch your superheroes, you feed your dog. Um but no, it's for all that I am

describing it very blas and for all that I recognize that it is not a thing that you would like because it's just like a

show that you watch with occasional quicktime elements and like dialogue choices,

I [ __ ] loved it. Okay. Okay. You you are welcome to your own

opinions. That's fine. Yes. It seems to be like people seem to be

digging whatever they're doing. So, it's

very very strong, right? Like the narrative is very strong. If you are into that

type of gameplay, it is very very strong. the like mini game of dispatching the superheroes is by itself

very fun and I think would make its own great game. Okay. Right. Like you just have a map of the

city and like little events pop up and you have to decide like which um superheroes you're going to send to

those events ah based on their strengths. And then occasionally you'll get like

one that seems really well suited to a superhero. You'll send that superhero and then you'll get another one that's better suited to the superhero you just

sent, but they're unavailable, so you have to send the guy that sucks at it. The classic superheroes dilemma.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, do do you send the big strong guy to go and lift the heavy things? Okay, you did that, but now you

also need a big tough guy to like weather this like storm over here. And

uh all you've got is the the squeeze the floors. Sure. Um Yeah. No, it's it's a lot of fun. Uh

it has literally nothing to do with today's topic. It's just we mentioned critical role and then my brain went to

dispatch because it's been living there for a while. Fair. So, yeah. Okay. So, the attention economy.

Um I hate it like I hate hell.

Oh, I despise the attention economy. Okay.

And like I I have a whole write up here with like notes that make it seem like that's maybe not the case. Um and like

talking about like ways that we can utilize ideas in the attention economy

in role playing games, but like the attention economy itself is something that I fundamentally disagree with in a lot

of ways. Is it because you have ADHD? That's part of it.

Okay. But it's also like evil.

Evil. It it evil. That's it. Wow. That's a very strong stance to take

about attention. Attention is great. Attention economy,

monetizing attention, like gripping attention and utilizing it in the ways that the people who have been doing that

have been doing it, okay? Is the literal [ __ ] worst. Okay. And I think is responsible for about 80%

of all of the world's ills today. That's wild. But okay,

like the the attention economy is and and I don't think that this is a

controversial statement despite the fact that it is about a controversial person. The attention economy is responsible for

Donald Trump being president. I Yeah. Okay. I I could see. your point

like the the attention economy for anybody who like isn't aware is the idea

that your eyeballs have value. The things that you watch, your attention,

the things that you listen to, all of those things have value for

specifically advertisers. Yeah. Right. So advertisers are going to see

the things that you're watching and put more of their advertisement money

towards the things that are getting more engagement. Sure. And the unfortunate part about this, so

like when it began, I I don't know like the the internet history knowledge of

our listener base, but like when the internet began, the idea of advertisements was wrong and bad. Like

if you were seeing a popup ad, you were on a very wrong kind of site,

right? Right. Like that that was a site that was [ __ ] dangerous. Yeah. Um

but now advertisement is the lifeblood of the internet. It's the only reason that you can have

your most popular sites is because they can sell ads on that site to to fund

themselves. Yeah. Yeah. For the most part. Like that. There are a few exceptions.

Yeah. Um but the vast majority of them run on advertising revenue.

And so the platforms that are selling that

advertising space are very good at figuring out what people are actually going to listen to and like talk about

and engage with. And they've discovered that it doesn't have to be good for you. Sure.

Absolutely. So stuff stuff that makes you mad. Yep. Stuff that makes you sad. Y

um I think probably the like scariest ones that I've seen are

like they will watch for teenage girls who are looking

at u diet and weight loss content. Yeah. to advertise

diet and weight loss content to them and then they will continue to feed them more content that makes them insecure

about their bodies. Yeah. Which is Yeah. Just like horrific to think about,

right? Like like as as a father of a Yeah. as as a father of a a young girl who is

just starting to like wrestle with the fact that she's

noticing boys and boys are noticing her and has

um I don't know if I've told you I might have told you this before but there was um a really shitty interaction she had

with one of her grandmothers um early on like this is a couple years ago where we

had And I've been talking to her about like, you know, her future and things she could do with her life. And somehow

like the idea of like being a model came up. I was like, well, I mean, you know, like you you could, you know, you're

you're tall and blonde and and you could like, you know, work doing whatever. It

wasn't even like about her wanting to do it. We just brought up the idea. And then later she was talking to her

grandmother about that conversation and instantly her grandmother was like,

"Oh, well, you'll never be a model. You're you don't have the right like

bones or something like what?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That uh Wow. Yeah. I

was so mad. I bet. Um cuz like of all the people you

would think would like blow smoke up your ass about how special you are, you would think that your grandmother would

maybe. Yeah. And like cuz that's what mine would very least. Like

I believe that my child is the most beautifulst kid that exists.

Sure. I am not an objective viewer of him.

Yeah. If he wanted to be a model, it would be the casting people's job to

tell him no. Correct. Correct. Cuz I don't even know what they're looking for.

No. Right. Like I'm not a model. I've never been a part of that world. Well, and here's the other thing is that like the

the traditional definition of hocoutur model has radically changed in the last

while. Yeah, maybe she won't be a runway model, but like there are a lot of brands out there that are very

specifically saying we need more people in our advertisements and on our pages

that represent the average person. And so, yeah, we're they're the fact

that someone like Tess Holiday had or has a career in modeling at all should tell you everything you need to know

about what body types can and can't be a model regardless of anything else.

Right. I'm like, literally anybody can do it. Sculpted too, right? Like you're

sure if you want to be a model. Yeah. There are steps that you can take to

improve your chances to do that, right? Like my my kid wants to be a YouTuber. Gross.

Right. Like every 12-year-old boy that exists, he wants to be a YouTuber, which feeds

into this whole like attention economy hatred thing cuz like good gods YouTube.

Um, but like rather than tell him that that is dumb or wrong or bad or anything that

would like quash that dream, the first thing I started to do was look at like

what steps do you need to take to better your chances of success in that field.

Right. Right. What do you need to know? What do you need to study? What should you be looking at in school? What types of

things do you need to know about like games and streaming and like analytics and like all of that other stuff, right?

Like that is the stuff that I'm focusing on because you can build towards that

career. And the same is true with modeling. You you work on your fitness. You work on like maintaining a healthy

diet. You like start to look at like the the grooming and like beautifification

products and right like the the makeup and the hair. You stay aware of fashion trends. You

learn how to style yourself to emphasize your own features like Exactly. Like you you take steps towards

the goal. You don't just tell them you got the wrong bones, kid. Yeah. Yeah.

Sorry. Sorry about your bones. Anyways, this lady sucks hard, so

whatever. We don't Yeah, we don't need to focus on that. But uh no but yeah like the the the fact that

there are big companies that are predating on the attention of people is

wrong and bad. Yeah. But there are things we can learn from it.

Sure. Um so like

Facebook works on a bunch of invisible rules, right? It's a bunch of information that is sent to them about

what you're watching, how long you watch it, right? Like if you watch a video all the way through and it repeats.

Yeah. That sends a very different signal to the algorithm than if you just kind of

hover over it. But if you do hover over it, that also sends a signal. Yes. It's it's taking all sorts of

insane data. Yeah. And you can do some of that at

your tables. Yeah. Right. Like you you can keep notes on

inside jokes that keep getting brought back up. Right. Right. The chuckles that you get from

like a particular NPC's actions or their voice. Um

how players react to different kinds of incentives. And like you we're not using

it for evil. We're not trying to like manipulate them or anything. No no idea.

We're mostly not trying to manipulate them. We're only trying to manipulate them as much as a DM normally does.

Yeah. But like in kind of the same way that

you scroll through reels on like Instagram, right? Your players are kind of scrolling

through your world, right? Right. What you are presenting them is content

and the stuff that they linger on, the stuff that they're interested in, the stuff that grabs them gives you

information about how you can tailor your games for better retention. Sure.

For keeping people engaged, uh, for making sure that people's like phones are off and away because you are also

competing with the attention economy. You're competing with Facebook. You're competing with YouTube.

Yeah. So yeah. Um

I I think that in a lot of ways like stuff in a game goes viral quote

unquote. [ __ ] it. I go on.

I came up with this idea. Okay. Like

not not even for you. Like I I I was the one who put these ideas on paper and was like this seems like a good podcast

idea. And then like as soon as we started recording I was like, "Oh yeah, I hate literally all of them."

You've rage baited yourself. Congratulations. Yes, I am. Okay, I am clicking on the

comment button and making a bunch of comments so that the algorithm knows that this is stuff that enrages me.

Yeah. Um, but like that that thing that we have talked

about a little bit where like the NPC that doesn't matter, the cardboard cutout NPC that you kind of put

somewhere suddenly becomes everybody's favorite. Yes. The one you gave the least amount of thought to is always the one that is

like, "Oh, you must take him everywhere." Yeah. Cuz you like made up a stupid voice on the spot and everybody was

like, "Yeah, we need to make him do that for the rest of the game." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but like you have you have an

immediate hook, right? You have like weird behavior, something that like

catches attention. Um, yeah, the party gets something out of

interacting with them, right? So, like they they get to keep hearing that stupid voice that you came up with on the fly or um it's a a character that

they find particularly charming and they're like, "Yeah, I want to hang out with that guy more." Yeah. Right.

um doesn't require a huge amount of backstory. And I think that's probably the key for like the the cardboard NPC

thing is that like you didn't frontload anything. You weren't like in the days of your this character pulled a sword

from a stone. None of that. It's just like you came up with him on the spot. He's some dude that was hanging out

beside the entrance to the bar. He wasn't even a bouncer. He was just like hanging out with the bouncer. Just a guy.

Just a guy. He's just a little guy. And then the ability to come back to it,

right? The ability to come back to that character and like know where he is. So you come back to that town and you're like, "Where's Jacob?" And everybody's

like, "Yeah, Jacob." And you're like, "I forgot who that was." Yeah. Because you just threw out a name

that you took off the Wuang rap name generator and now he's their favorite.

I love that generator so good. I still use it. That's why I reference it because I knew

it was still in your arsenal. Yeah. Like I don't use it for for characters. I use it for work.

Yep. Yep. For making fake doctors that don't exist. Fake patients mostly. Yeah.

Oh yeah. Yeah. That'll do it. Yeah. Um,

but like I I think that the

lore drops like the the reason that you start to lose people is also the same kind of reasons that you lose people in

YouTube videos. Sure, that makes sense, right? So,

like anytime you're looking at doing like a big exposition drop Yeah.

If it doesn't immediately hook, if it doesn't immediately grab attention, you're going to start to

lose people. Yeah. And even if you have that hook, if the

thing that you're talking about has a large amount of like weight behind it,

you're going to start to lose people because they start to get bored. Yeah. And if you're me, because you

spent too much time writing the description and you're using words that

nobody cares about. Yeah. Which is absolutely a problem for me.

I Yeah. Go ahead. So there was a a discussion that was

happening about like GNS theory on like the RPG Reddit. Okay.

And I wrote a thing. It it was like a a newer blog, right? Like a blog post that

was about um what are rules for based on like a Lumply article from like 2002.

Makes sense. Yeah. And so I wrote a thing that was like you kind of have to assume that nobody has

actually done any research or theorizing to engage with this in the last 20 years,

right? and I wrote it like I would a response to a philosophy paper. And the first response

to that was, "You used a lot of funny words."

But what I got was

Yeah, I am I am disappointed that that's a response, but I'm not surprised.

you know, they asked more questions, which I thought was pretty cool. Sure, that's a start.

Yeah, just like the there's been a lot of really interesting research that's

been done on RPGs, but I'm not going to get into that because I don't need to lure dump in the middle of a podcast

episode because attention economy, right? We respect yours. Thank you for giving

us the half an hour every week that we take up. That really is it though. I think like

the the biggest reason that I despise the attention economy the way that I do is because it

disrespectful. Oh, fair, right? Like I I don't mind that I'm

competing against other creators in this space. Like I the podcast makes no money

and I'm okay with that. Like sure the it doesn't need to I'm not trying to

monetize anybody's attention from this. Just like I I like having a conversation with my friend. Yeah. and we're talking about things

that I think other people might find interesting. So, if people want to engage with that, that's cool.

Yeah. But like the the viciousness of the way the attention economy is used

really drives me nuts. No, that's fair. I mean, like,

it really does suck to like have it so brazenly be obvious that like you are

the commodity. Yeah. Well, like it's that I I don't know how

popular it is in circles that aren't mine, but there's there's a quote that goes around that says that if you're using a service on the internet and it's

free, you're the product. Yeah. No, that's that's absolutely true.

And that is a really scummy way to do business.

That's also just how business is done now though, unfortunately. Like

it is. Yeah. But like I I think that like as as DMs, like even if we're going

to start utilizing like the tricks of Tik Tok, right, to try and like get player attention,

even if we're going to try and like have a better clickable thumbnail image,

right, for your game or whatever, like the the goal is to honor the attention and

attendance of your players, right? Right. Like they they have blessed you

with this attention. they have given you their time that they could be spending doom scrolling on Instagram.

Yeah. And I think that there are like some things that we can do to try and like encourage

that a bit. All right. So, give give us some

examples. All right. So, downtime

allows players to be in a low stimulation story beat, right? And you can reward that.

Okay. Right. You can reward quiet choices with like extra spot spotlight time with like

a a greater amount of like emotional weight to those quiet scenes

with like smaller decisions having bigger impact. So you don't necessarily

have to have the like I rolled a d20 like everybody explodes, Ellie Beardsley runs around the table four times, right?

Uh yeah, the ability to have

like slower play that doesn't punish attention, that doesn't like

blast you with a bunch of information, right? Can help like keep that

respect to the attention. I'm not just here to like steal it.

Yeah. Um, yeah.

Okay. Not the craziest statement I've heard you make.

No, I I think the craziest statement you've heard me make was that uh 80% of

the world's problems are based on the attention economy. I mean, yeah, that was that was

definitely up there. So like, okay, so I I don't do

some of those things. Well, I I'll admit that. For free. Which things?

Like these the idea of like the the slow moments that like like you said

like that the the slow role playing moment, you know? Mhm. um

and the like respectfully paced story beat,

right? you know. Uh so I guess what I'm trying to figure out for myself is like

how would you approach let's say you've you've started your

campaign, you're you know a relatively inexperienced DM and these are

relatively inexperienced players who for better or worse have been

raised on the critical role diet of like

incredible improv acting all the time kind of whatever that they expect these

crazy story things that you aren't prepared to do and you're trying to figure out a way to like balance all of

this. What would you put forth as like sort of like an introductory level,

you know, respectful story beat that doesn't get too out of hand and lets you

pace that people that that like I said, manage the attention and and uh dinner.

Yeah. like put your players put your players

characters into a family dinner scenario. Okay?

Right? You have them sitting at a table and you have food in front of them.

Okay? And you have a thing that needs to be discussed. Like usually you're going to need to involve an NPC in this because I

I have found that most players, especially inexperienced players, aren't necessarily comfortable

uh interacting with one another. Sure. Very quickly, right? Like it does take a bit of uh like time and experience

before they'll start role playing off of one another. But like if you have like an old Mrs.

pops type character, okay, who is serving them dinner and asking them questions,

right? Then you very quickly get into a place where like they're not just coming up

with the next piece of chaos, right? They they have an opportunity to

slow down a little bit and you have to like consciously do this as well. So I think like part of it is like slowing

down the way you speak. Sure. Right. very consciously describing things in like a a cozier, warmer vibe.

Okay. The way that your character speaks should be comforting, right? Like they

shouldn't be like overblown or dramatic. Um you'll still need to project.

Sure. But you want to project with like warmth rather than I am projecting now. Um

theater kids. Theater kids man. Um but yeah, that that I think would be the

first scene that I would introduce of that sort, right? Where um it comes readymade with the

opportunity for interchar

Mrs. Pots is going to be very disappointed with you. Sure. You need to sit down and eat your dinner.

Yes, ma'am. Right. And it it enforces a bit of

downtime. And downtime is just it is so incredibly important to pacing in a role

playing game and so incredibly important for like maintaining those attention levels

because like once you're done with that moment and you get back to the chaos. Yeah. It doesn't matter how much chaos there

is, it feels so much more elevated. Sure. Right. Because you have that like dip.

Yeah. And then yeah, like provide

a reward of some sort for it, right? Like M Mrs. Pots will give each of you

like a vial of healing potion or whatever and like patch you on the but on the way out the door. Like go get

them monsters. Like go get them, champ. Go get them, champ. Yeah. No, the the role of parental

surrogate characters in role playing games cannot be overstated. Right.

Well, and and I think like you know part like as a

additional effect of this slower moment is that like by having that

that kind of character exist it reminds them that this world is like nuanced and

not just you know crazy [ __ ] happening all the time. It's not a TV show. It's it's a

world that they live in and have to uh you know have to protect.

Well, and like without lore drops, which I think is also like the the big thing, right? Like Mrs. Pots's just living in

her house and like taking care of strangers and she just runs a bed and breakfast or whatever.

Yeah. Right. She can drop important lines later, right?

Right. Like if if you guys have been like hunting down some like Minotaur

character for the last like three sessions and he's just been nowhere to be seen,

right? And just a [ __ ] ghost. And then she says something about the creepy tall cow

that like Mr. Figs is dealing with on his farm,

right? like Sunday like adventure clue tied to Sunday Night Dinner.

Yeah. Oh, also there's a hedge labyrinth around the corner that God, I've been meaning to check out.

You know, they put in that corn maze and I have not yet had a chance to try it, but I hear there's a really good reward

right at the middle. Candy corn. Just like

Yeah. No, I I think that is key. NPCs obviously a big deal for that. But like

once once your players get into it though. Yeah. That's kind of where it takes off for

me, right? Like that is where you get the opportunity to like every travel scene.

Yeah. You just sit back. Yeah. And then they Right.

They start freestyling. They start freestyle. They start talking to each other about like character beats

and like having character moments. discussing the like adventures that

they've been on recently and like recontextualizing stuff and like coming up with their own stories and things. Yeah, it's it's [ __ ] great. But like

you need to encourage it. Yeah, that's fair. You need to encourage it by rewarding their attention.

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