Why We Like Nazis

This week brought to you by clickbait!

Why do Nazis make the ultimate antagonists for your tabletop campaigns? In this episode of No Plot, Only Lore, Josh and Kris break down the mechanics of using fascist-coded villains to create high-stakes, morally clear, and narratively complex stories without falling into the "both-sides" trap.

We discuss why fascist structures provide perfect hierarchical challenges for players, how to use anti-intellectualism and bureaucratic evil to build tension, and the essential "do’s and don’ts" for maintaining a meaningful narrative. From creating identifiable symbols and scapegoats to portraying joyful resistance, learn how to build villains your players will love to hate—and why it’s always okay to throw them off a train.

Key Topics Covered:

• Why the "banality of evil" works in fantasy settings.

• Distinguishing between lawful, chaotic, and bureaucratic villainy.

• How to handle Nazi-coded antagonists without letting your table "empathize" with them.

• Building a resistance movement that feels like a real, joyful counterforce.

• The dangers of making your D&D world feel too similar to real-world rhetoric.

If you enjoy deep dives into game design theory, one-page RPGs, and the tables we play them at, subscribe to No Plot, Only Lore.

Visit us at noplotonlore.com for more episodes and resources. Please rate, review, and share this episode with your party!

Transcript:

0:04

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You're listening to No Plot Only Lore, a podcast about games and the tables we play them at. Your DMs tonight and every

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night are Josh and Chris. You can find us on all podcast platforms or check us out at noplotonlore.com.

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If you like what you hear today, please rate and review the show and share it with everyone you've ever met.

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Welcome back to No Plot Only Lore. This week brought to you by punching Nazis. Josh, have you ever punched a Nazi?

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Uh, does Wolfenstein count? I think it does. Then yeah, I've punched so many Nazis.

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Uh, I don't I there's a nonzero chance I may have punched one at like an early

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hardcore show and they just like weren't fully out of the hateful closet yet. But I guess I'll never know. I have to hope

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that at least one or two of them, you know, were not just like I I can't I can't have a 100% like good person punch

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success rate, you know? So, I'm just I'm just hoping I'm hoping one of the people that I rocked accidentally uh was a Nazi, so I feel better about it.

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Or you punch somebody so hard they went back into the hateful closet like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be great.

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Yeah. Just man, it's gotten real easy to be a loud Nazi lately.

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Yeah. Yeah. Disturbingly comfortable in the current setting for people to uh to

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have a regressive, hateful view of the world. Um it's probably because he was saying that like people have

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gotten really comfortable with saying whatever the hell they want without getting punched in the mouth about it.

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Yeah. But I don't think that was even like specific about Nazis.

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Yeah. No, it's like in general people have gotten way too free just because of the internet with saying all sorts of

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things. I mean there was um there was a guy I think he was talking to like Sean Strickland or something on Twitter. It

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was it was some highlevel uh MMA guy and he ran his mouth and the

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the fighter responded like, "Yeah, I bet you wouldn't say that to my face." He's like, "No, I wouldn't. That's why I said it on Twitter." He goes, "Yeah, okay,

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fair enough."

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Like, yeah, the the internet has allowed people to be increasingly I I I think we've gone through this sort

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of cycle where the internet allowed people who were quiet before to be increasingly loud and now that they've gotten so loud they feel a lot bolder saying it like, you know, out loud IRL.

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And unfortunately the political situation right now both in the US and Alberta to a certain

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extent has got to the point where um that kind of behavior is

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tacitly endorsed by the people in power because it serves their ends well. And I think that it was kind of interesting

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too in that like early on in the internet because like these ideas never went away. His ideas have always been like whispered in back rooms and like

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Yeah. They go underground every time they get their ass kicked.

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Yeah. Like you would get a little too drunk and one of your uncles would start saying some stuff that wouldn't go like

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wouldn't even [ __ ] an eyebrow at like a clan rally, right? Like so like that that stuff has always been there, but like the internet gave you

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like this anonymous place that you could be to express those kinds of ideas. And then I recall early on with Facebook,

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they started requiring people to like reveal their real names. Like I I was going by a a pseudonym on Facebook for

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years. And there was a huge outcry from a lot of people being like, I can't espouse my shitty views if I'm forced to attack my own name on it. You guys are killing the anonymity of the internet.

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And now it doesn't matter. People are just saying it on Maine and it's [ __ ] weird.

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Yep. you know, for as much good as the internet's done for letting um like the right kinds of marginalized communities

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find each other and and be able to be that support network, it has done exactly the same for the wrong kind of marginalized communities, the kinds that

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need to stay in the margins and need to stay underground because they are incompatible with society.

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Okay. So, I'm going to say something that is probably a little controversial.

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I personally, as a DM, love Nazis.

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I think they're great. I, as a DM, personally,

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love Nazi ideology as as as a tool. Um,

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yeah, they are by and the best villains.

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Yes. Like they are so so cartoonishly good.

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Oh yeah. Yeah. Just like and and I think probably my favorite thing about them is it doesn't matter how cartoonish you go with it. Yeah.

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Right. Because like no matter how hateful and vile and evil you make your antagonists, especially if they're espousing Nazi ideology,

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it still works.

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Yeah. Well, I mean, I think my favorite part is that you can you can do and say insane things or put those values onto

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those villains and then if someone's like, "That doesn't seem real," you can just point to real life and be like,

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"Well, here's an example of them doing that exact thing." Um, or worse. Often worse. So,

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almost always worse.

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Yeah. You really like you get to have your cake and eat it too. like these are, you know, super villains and it's like ah they're still not as bad as like

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the actual villains that we had 100 years ago, so you're fine.

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Well, and like as as villains, I think and like one of my favorite things about like the the idea of Nazism, especially like specifically Nazis,

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is that they come pre-equipped with an hierarchy.

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Yeah. Yeah. So, like you already have like your boots on the ground like goostepping their ways through neighborhoods causing a ruckus. Yeah.

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And then you've got the lieutenants who are like ordering them around. And so you've got like your mini bosses. You've already got like generals in the SS and

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you've got the Air Force and you've got like all of the it's perfectly militarized for like strata antagonists

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and they're all evil. Deeply deeply [ __ ] evil. Well, it's not like the zombies cuz like the thing that I have against zombies is that zombies are just baseline,

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right? Like unless you do something like um like a Resident Evil with them where you make like weird zombies off on the side.

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Yeah. You you don't have different zombies.

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No, they're they're just they're they're essentially just like a a plague of insects. like,

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yeah,

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they're just a swarm of X thing that has no real like drive or hierarchy or structure other than just consume.

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And you can treat Nazis like that,

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right? Like if you if you want to go like just baseline with it, you can have Nazis that work exactly the same way that zombies do and have that work. But

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then you also get to add thinking and strategizing and like evil intelligence and experimentation and learning, right?

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And all of those things that you don't get from zombies. Plus, it's still perfectly morally viable to stab them in the face over and over and over again.

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Yeah. Now, one thing that I I kind of like about using Nazis and Nazi analoges

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in campaigns is that it allows you to utilize a level of intelligence in your villain that you kind of normally don't.

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Like, at a certain point, your bad guys have to be like a little bit stupid so that the the team has a chance of winning. Um, but with Nazis, it makes

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total sense for like, you know, even like like an under boss or like a mid-level sort of lieutenant to be a

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little more clever, use people as road bumps so that he can get away. Um, you know, it it really allows you to easily make recurring villains who, you know,

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constantly like escape and come back.

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Um, it'll easily allows you to make specialized villains within the structure. like you've got your um your mad scientist type that also fits in

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with your like strict like stormtrooper type um or or you know your chemical weapons expert things like that. So

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you've got guys that can make intelligent decisions to save themselves um and excuses for them to keep running away

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that don't feel like you're cheating your players. Um and then you can just keep building on it. Okay, so one of our

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famous known secretors, um, I was stealing a history course with my

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ex-girlfriend at one point and we were talking about Eastern European history, okay?

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And we'd gotten into World War II and we were starting to talk about a lot of the the different like facets of fascism and

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its like villainization of like Eastern Europe. And one of the things that the professor said was uh Hitler always had

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a scapegoat, right? He he had somebody that he could blame for things very similar to some politics that are happening south of the border here.

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And everything went normally for that class until the end where he asked if there were questions. And one girl raised her

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hand and asked um where did Hitler keep his escape goat? Like did he just like have it like in a a kennel somewhere?

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I love the idea of Hitler hopping on the back of a a spotted little goat riding off.

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Stupid screaming goats from like Thor Love and Thunder just Yeah. So anyway,

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if there's one thing we adore is people need to use escape goats for their villains more often. They really do. They really do. Um, no.

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I think one of the the cool things about like like you were saying with like sometimes villains have to be a little stupid. Yeah.

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One of the cool things with Nazis is that they they don't. Yeah.

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Right. Like you can have an incredibly intelligent, incredibly competent,

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very very evil antagonist who doesn't make any mistakes himself, but is [ __ ] by the organization.

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Sure. Yeah.

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Right. other people in that organization are throwing him under the bus for their own gain. Yeah.

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Right. They're trying to manipulate the the fascist systems that are keeping themselves afloat.

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And in order to do that, they need a scapegoat for that. And they use your guy, right? So, you don't have to

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diminish your own villain to give your players a leg up. You just need to make another guy shitty to your guy.

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Yeah. Yeah. He can he he can be competent and and a real threat and then also get taken down by being backstabbed by another villain.

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Yeah. Yeah. And like you don't even have to mention that villain. You don't have to have that villain be anywhere or do anything. It's just like sorry bud bureaucracy happened.

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Yeah.

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Yes. You were expecting backup on this specific thing, but the furer's nephew wanted those guys for a different thing.

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So, yeah, sorry.

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You're on your own. Oh, sorry. The shipment of weapons didn't arrive. You don't actually have any ammunition for your men. You're left in the middle of

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or you know, you you finally chase him down after he gets away for the fourth time and you find him and his guys have been starving in a field for a couple of

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weeks because they just never got sent food.

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Meanwhile, Hans is back in Berlin like sipping on champagne that he got from selling those weapons to the Ruskies, right? Yeah.

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Yeah. No, it's uh they are such brilliant multiaceted

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villains and again like the the morality

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means that it is very easy to gro what's happening immediately, right? You never have to feel bad about shooting a Nazi.

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You never have to feel bad that you thrown a Nazi off a train, right? Like even even getting weird with it,

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right? Because like there's that stereotype of like players start torturing people like 30 seconds into the session.

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Yeah. Even the good ones. Yeah.

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You don't have to feel bad about torturing the Nazis.

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No, not at all. you know, um I was even thinking like using Nazis as

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sort of a quick way to be able to um in a way like code switch

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back and forth between like lawful evil and like chaotic evil because there are

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people within the organization that just are those like unhinged hammers that you kind of swing around every once in a

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now. Um Mhm.

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and you know you you know some some of the lawful types that you have right now

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things like devils and stuff like that can be a little like narrow I think sometimes in like what

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the scope of like this you know overall crew might have like in their their ongoing sort of arsenal. And the Nazis,

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like you've seen, they've they've they grabbed weirdos from everywhere. So,

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you've got that ability to like slot in inherent variety without it feeling tacked on. Like, no. Like, they they all wear the same, you know, t-shirt and

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sweatpants, you know, they they all have the same patch on their arm or whatever. Um,

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you know, as opposed to also like the fully chaotic elements of evil that like the the

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goblins and stuff like that where they're just sort of like unpredictable and squabbbly. You can It would feel weird a lot of the times if like there

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was two. You might have like one guy at the top who's super organized or or has a little bit of intelligence, but it would feel weird if you had multiple

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rungs of that where like it doesn't feel that weird to switch from like, okay,

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these are like the baseline frontline guys who are just trying to like hurt everybody as much as they can and then their orders are coming from someone who's much who's a little more organized and then he's getting orders from

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someone who's even more organized. and like it lets you sort of progress through the different flavors of evil um in a way that keeps things fresh.

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Well, and I think that like the alignment chart is bad and wrong, but

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if you want the perfect example of lawful evil, it is the Nazis.

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Right.

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Right. Like they create laws to hurt people,

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right? They specifically enact new systems to hurt and kill as many people as possible for their own selfish

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like aims. And I think that that is really illustrative of the difference between like the I'm going to kill everybody like the Joker style evil,

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right?

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Versus like very clearly organized, we're doing this for quote unquote the greater good and to do that we're going to kill six million people,

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right? Well, I think it also does help you show it's a tool that you can use to show the slide of honest, law-abiding people into evil.

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You know, you talk about like the benality of evil. Um, and there's certain people out there we're even seeing now who like their entire thought process is just,

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well, this is the law. This is lawful.

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follow the laws and no matter what happens it's not bad or evil because well that was the law right um

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well yeah like that gives you your lawful neutrals right right like they're not actively good they're not actively evil they're just

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following the law they're doing what they need to do to stay within the the like rules that they've been assigned

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and those rules just happen to be created by a bunch of evil bastards right well and you even take like your

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your lawful good paladin cop who is just more interested in the lawful part of things. He starts out doing good things

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but then it's just like well this is the law and the higherups just keep you know shifting the goalposts on what the law means and he's just like well I I am a

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law follower that's what makes me good not being able to detach the idea of of his goodness or evilness from lawfulness

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right so that gives you some sort of character progression in that in that idea of like well what actually makes someone good or

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evil? Is it their lawful or unlawfulness?

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That that would create an interesting arc for like the the move from law as dictated by the state to law as dictated by my own code.

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Right.

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Right. Because it is very easy to just like lean on what the state has said is good and right for lawful good. But a lot of times laws

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are created by people who have very specific aims in mind that aren't necessarily for the good of everyone,

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right?

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So like learning to separate those things as a lawful good character can be interesting and weird. And also just

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like playing the chaotic evil character in a Nazi place Yeah. is hard. Yeah.

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Yeah. you. It's really hard to be chaotic evil when everyone around you is more evil and following the rules.

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Yes. Yeah.

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Well, I was going to say even using the idea of of sort of the religious theme of like God's law being higher than

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man's law and you know playing like well what what does being lawful actually mean? You know, who's are my internal

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laws what's truly lawful? Is it the societal laws? Is it like natural law that's more important? What what is the law that you're following? Right.

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Right.

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Well, and I think what one of the more interesting facets about Nazis as bad guys is that they are they are just inherently wrong.

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Right.

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Right. like they their entire ideology is based on mythologizing a past that didn't happen

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and scapegoating a group that didn't really have anything to do with the woes of the country that you're in

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and like the the contradictions of like these are the things that Hitler says and these are the things that Hitler

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does and those are very different things. Right.

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Right. And that wrongness gives you both like the the moral leeway

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to fight Nazis on whatever like battlefield you're most comfortable

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as well as providing like the the backbone for like something to rebel against. Right.

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Right.

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Um and it all collapses under scrutiny which is also hilarious. like the more you look at it and like again we're we're seeing this play out in places in

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the world right now where anytime you take like a logical lens to the things that are happening in America

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right now logic left the building a while ago yeah it's it's the irony being that the

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the facts don't care about your feelings crowd is now like 100% driven by feelings is so funny. Um,

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but still saying facts don't they care about your feelings,

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right? Because because feelings have replaced facts, but they still call them facts.

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There was something I was reading not too terribly long ago that was talking about how

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that mentality comes from adherence to authority, right? And again, like going to the the idea of like the the laws

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that are established by the state are right and good because they were established by the state, right? Um,

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Donald Trump isn't wrong because he's Donald Trump. Right. Right.

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That is the entirety of the logic that needs to be applied to the way that he's approaching things. Do the tariffs actually work?

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No.

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No. Not at all. They have. They've had the opposite effect.

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But they do work because Donald Trump said they do. Right.

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Right. And that that authority confers truth. Right. Like that's the thing that provides the the framework for the morality. And again,

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any kind of logical scrutiny that you point at it, if you if you take any time pointing a micro like magnifying glass or microscope at these things, they they fall apart immediately.

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Well, and I think what's interesting about that is that it it draws and and the way that that actually helps tie in

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using Nazis in your your tabletop setting is that that draws a lot from religious zealatry. Um, so the

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when you talk about like using cultists and zealots and stuff like that in your games, you're more often going to be

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using them as extensions of a a god or something like that. But even though they and they will have you know their

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high clerics or what have you there but you know the the same logic applies like oh this is this is true because Bahamut

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said it versus this is true because Donald Trump said it. the the logical thought stops at this is my source of

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truth and my my authority on truth and then whatever things come out of them no matter how contradictory must be simultaneously true.

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Yeah.

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And that gives you again like some some interesting ways to combat the ideology,

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right? Like you you have the the propaganda angle, right? where you have your your Fox Newses and your gerbles

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and your gorings and like everybody running around talking about how wonderful and great this new empire is and um and again like we we've seen so much

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of that recently with the like everything is great, the economyy's never been better, right? And like people are objectively suffering under

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the the regime. Um so you have like spy angles that you can do, right? Like you have the entire structure of an

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espionage campaign just waiting to happen where you're like sneaking into things and stealing plans and breaking codes and like all of the the fun like

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World War II nonsense that like you can build campaigns out of. And then you've also got like the the factions fighting

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against one another and like trying to leverage one faction of evil bastards against a different faction of evil bastards, right? Like the racists and

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the sexists aren't getting along right now. So, how do we make that work? Right. Right. Um,

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and like finding ways to to break those like very brittle hierarchies.

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Sure.

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And destroy that source of truth or like undermine that source of truth in a way that might actually work. Although, as far as I can tell, it never does.

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Fair.

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Okay. So, yeah. So, like we're talking about obviously you could just depending on the setting of the game, you could just put like literal Nazis in. Um, but

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you know, even now Nazis don't always identify themselves as Nazis. So, what would you consider to be the sort of like hallmarks of that sort of ideology

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that you would use to make that translation into your game to define the the fascist group within your tabletop

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game? What are their characteristics? It can't all be Hugo Boss fashion.

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No, cuz if that were the case, then the Americans would dress a lot snappier. Um,

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the biggest things for me are like you need strongman mentality leadership, right? Like you

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need you need one powerful, charismatic person to rally around in an almost cult of personality way.

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It needs to have very clear identifiable in-groups and outroups.

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So you have your Aryans in the the Nazi Germany and then you have your Jews,

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right? And the the Jews were joined by all of the other out groups that they needed to scapegoat. So your homosexuals, your trans people,

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everybody who didn't fit into that Aryan mold, right? And then all of the decision- making has to be promoting the inroup,

26:08

26 minutes, 8 seconds

right?

26:09

26 minutes, 9 seconds

Um that there's a really great like 10point document that was making the rounds a

26:18

26 minutes, 18 seconds

couple of years ago about like what points need to be hit for fascism. I'm going to see if I can find it here.

26:23

26 minutes, 23 seconds

What So you're saying, you know, Nazis um should have a good number of rituals. Um they should be highly symbolic.

26:32

26 minutes, 32 seconds

They should have uniform appearances. Um yes. So they are easily identifiable which both you know which contributes to your idea

26:40

26 minutes, 40 seconds

of like the inroup being established and promoted. Like once you have that cloth placed on you now you are

26:48

26 minutes, 48 seconds

part of that endroup and therefore it is in your uh best interest to keep promoting their superiority. Um, they should have slogans, um, things that

26:57

26 minutes, 57 seconds

they almost like mantras they repeat a lot. Um, and that all serves to sort of

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27 minutes, 4 seconds

give you a more instantly readable villain with a little less time to work on buyin. Like you don't have to give the like, oh, this is like a, you know,

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27 minutes, 12 seconds

there's less exposition. You have a little more energy at the table of like,

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27 minutes, 16 seconds

oh, we keep seeing like these guys with the, I don't know, white hand symbol or whatever. you know, obviously they're part of this this movement, right?

27:27

27 minutes, 27 seconds

Well, and that Yeah. the the identifiable characteristics part of it, right? Like the the the red hats. Yeah. Right. The the Hugo Boss jackets, right?

27:35

27 minutes, 35 seconds

The the swastika armband. Um Yeah.

27:38

27 minutes, 38 seconds

And other fascist countries have had other identifiable bits of fashion to define.

27:45

27 minutes, 45 seconds

Was it the brown shirts or something in Italy? Yep. um continuing and powerful nationalism.

27:53

27 minutes, 53 seconds

Okay,

27:53

27 minutes, 53 seconds

so the idea of like one state being bigger and better and greater than all of the others or at least it should be

28:00

28 minutes

and everybody should recognize the greatness of that uh that nation.

28:06

28 minutes, 6 seconds

Um disdain for the recognition of human rights. Okay. So again with that in-group out group,

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28 minutes, 14 seconds

right? You have the in-group who are human and you have the outroup who we can do whatever we want to because they aren't human. They're subhuman.

28:22

28 minutes, 22 seconds

And that's language that we saw leveraged quite a bit against uh the Jews in Germany. Um and it's language that we're seeing still today.

28:33

28 minutes, 33 seconds

Um the identification of enemies, the supremacy of the military. Yep.

28:39

28 minutes, 39 seconds

So like making sure that all of the bad guys that you're you're facing, not all of them, but like a huge number of the bad guys are strongly militarized,

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28 minutes, 48 seconds

right? They again have uniforms. They have like military rituals that they're involved with. They've got salutes that they do. They've got ranks that they recognize.

28:58

28 minutes, 58 seconds

Um standardized equipment. So that's like, oh, these guys are all sort of together.

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29 minutes, 4 seconds

Uh rampant sexism is on the list. Um, so they tend to be strongly or exclusively male-dominated.

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29 minutes, 12 seconds

Um, gender roles are made more rigid and uh, anything that steps outside of those gender roles or um, ignores the the gender binary is vilified.

29:23

29 minutes, 23 seconds

Okay. Uh, control of the mass media. So again,

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29 minutes, 27 seconds

that propaganda angle, right? They're just churning out information about like what their ideology is and how Yes. that us good them bad.

29:36

29 minutes, 36 seconds

Yeah. uh an obsession with national security. Yeah.

29:40

29 minutes, 40 seconds

There there's the threat. It's not just an out group. It's a out group that's a threat.

29:44

29 minutes, 44 seconds

Right. The um the Jews that are controlling the entire world. Yeah.

29:49

29 minutes, 49 seconds

Right. The woke agenda that is undermining the the world's morality.

29:56

29 minutes, 56 seconds

Sure. That that is the threat the existential threat from outside.

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30 minutes

Um corporate power is protected. So we see the rise of AI and the the social media companies getting all that money.

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30 minutes, 11 seconds

Um labor power is suppressed. So we see the the dissolution of unions or the complete eradication of unions. Uh

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30 minutes, 20 seconds

nationalized labor and forced labor through the out groupoups.

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30 minutes, 24 seconds

Uh disdain for intellectuals and the arts. So [ __ ] you.

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30 minutes, 29 seconds

No, no. I was going to say cuz like I I knew that the dismissal of like expertise or like um education or

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30 minutes, 39 seconds

educated opinions was a huge important part of it where it's like the the idea that like

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30 minutes, 47 seconds

your opinion matters just as much because you I don't know are like more real as

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30 minutes, 55 seconds

opposed to like this ivory tower intellectual or whatever. ever just the idea that there's like this again the

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31 minutes, 2 seconds

the othering and the uh outsider status of people who can [ __ ] read. Um well

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31 minutes, 10 seconds

it's it's the thing where like people who go to postsecary education are more often left-leaning in the political

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31 minutes, 18 seconds

scale and there is a group of people who will take that to mean that the schools are teaching socialist values.

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31 minutes, 27 seconds

Right.

31:27

31 minutes, 27 seconds

Right. They're trying to corrupt our youth into uh knowledge, which is actually just

31:34

31 minutes, 34 seconds

lies about the the way that the world works. Yeah.

31:38

31 minutes, 38 seconds

And so if you give into that, if you let your kids go get educated, then they're going to turn into lefty snowflakes, right?

31:46

31 minutes, 46 seconds

Um and anti-intellectualism has been on the rise for a very long time.

31:53

31 minutes, 53 seconds

Yeah. and the fact that intellectualism has become very standardized, right? Like the fact that almost everybody has a degree,

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32 minutes, 3 seconds

right? Like it's weird if you don't have a degree now.

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32 minutes, 5 seconds

Before that was like a a big step up in the world. It the value of the education

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32 minutes, 12 seconds

has gone down which makes it easier to devalue the educated. Well, yeah. I was going to say like especially in the States, it went from like, okay, getting

32:20

32 minutes, 20 seconds

a degree is going to give you a leg up in the job market to well, if you don't have a degree, you're actually like undervalued in the job market, so

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32 minutes, 28 seconds

everyone should get a degree. And then it was, well, if everyone's going to get a degree, then we need more options for degrees because we can't flood individual like um industries or

32:37

32 minutes, 37 seconds

whatever. So then they start opening up degrees to like just kind of silly things which then lets the people who didn't think you should go to university

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32 minutes, 46 seconds

in the first place invalidate your degree like oh well you learned you know liberal gay dance theory or something

32:54

32 minutes, 54 seconds

like it's just you know well you have a degree that doesn't really prove anything whereas before not only were you getting like often specific technical training but it was also just

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33 minutes, 1 second

an exercise to show like hey you can like stick with this thing for four years right that being said the value You're sticking with things doesn't

33:09

33 minutes, 9 seconds

matter anymore. So, I mean, why should your degree? I have a degree in doodle moving. Yeah. That taught me art critique. So,

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33 minutes, 18 seconds

yeah.

33:20

33 minutes, 20 seconds

Feeling that on a deep and personal level. Yeah. Yeah.

33:25

33 minutes, 25 seconds

And then an obsession with crime and punishment. Um,

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33 minutes, 30 seconds

getting the laws matter and we got to make sure that the laws are being applied to the right people and that

33:39

33 minutes, 39 seconds

the like crime that is running rampant through our streets will just be solved as soon as we can get rid of the wrong people.

33:46

33 minutes, 46 seconds

Right.

33:47

33 minutes, 47 seconds

Because the wrong people, they don't care about the laws and they're breaking all of them. It's only the wrong people that are breaking laws. Yeah.

33:54

33 minutes, 54 seconds

Uh, rampant cronyism and corruption.

33:58

33 minutes, 58 seconds

So pretty selfish butt. Yeah,

34:02

34 minutes, 2 seconds

I need a $400 million ballroom. And also give me 10 billion dollars for this peace committee that I chair forever until I die.

34:13

34 minutes, 13 seconds

Yeah. And then fraudulent elections. So every once in a while you hold an election and then you win that election by a landslide because you decided who got to vote who.

34:23

34 minutes, 23 seconds

Yeah. Well, and the I mean the big benefit of of structuring an organization like this is that you know

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34 minutes, 31 seconds

you don't need like you said, you don't need a lore dump to know that they're the bad guys. If you keep seeing if if the party's going from bad thing to bad

34:38

34 minutes, 38 seconds

thing and the same type of guys keep showing up at it, like it's pretty self-explanatory.

34:44

34 minutes, 44 seconds

And then every time you show up to a thing where somebody's being a racist douchebag and the same six guys are standing there with like a very clear symbol on them.

34:54

34 minutes, 54 seconds

Yeah, it might be those guys.

34:59

34 minutes, 59 seconds

They have maybe they have a track to share with you or something like that.

35:02

35 minutes, 2 seconds

Like why don't you come to our barbecue?

35:09

35 minutes, 9 seconds

Um uh so yeah, we did have a couple of things that we wanted to avoid. Some stuff that you don't want to do at the table. One,

35:17

35 minutes, 17 seconds

don't play as the Nazis. Please don't. Play as the Nazis.

35:21

35 minutes, 21 seconds

You have to you have to as the DM, you have to play the Nazis, but like I would

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35 minutes, 28 seconds

not take a hilt. Yeah. Yeah.

35:34

35 minutes, 34 seconds

Like DM make them evil. It would take a very skilled DM to start his party in

35:43

35 minutes, 43 seconds

that organization and have them come to the realization that they're the bad guys. But

35:49

35 minutes, 49 seconds

that I think is such a tight rope to walk that it's not worth

35:58

35 minutes, 58 seconds

accidentally having one of your guys be like, "No, actually I think they have some good ideas."

36:03

36 minutes, 3 seconds

That's a session zero conversation for sure of like Okay. So, what we're going to do, here's the thing. We're starting

36:10

36 minutes, 10 seconds

as Nazis. And then you wait for your table to calm down.

36:15

36 minutes, 15 seconds

You say, "Okay, but we're going to figure it out."

36:18

36 minutes, 18 seconds

I think we're gonna we're going to stop being Nazis by the end of the third session. I think in order to make that switch,

36:24

36 minutes, 24 seconds

like you have to you can't tell them they're Nazis. Like, they have to figure out.

36:30

36 minutes, 30 seconds

Yeah. They have to have that moment of like, "Wait a minute.

36:36

36 minutes, 36 seconds

And I I don't know if people are smart enough to do that. They are not like Okay, I know players who are.

36:45

36 minutes, 45 seconds

Yes,

36:46

36 minutes, 46 seconds

I know groups that would be able to handle that. Yeah,

36:50

36 minutes, 50 seconds

as a generality, it is not a thing I would want to try. No. Um,

36:59

36 minutes, 59 seconds

no. I mean, even popular culture has so many quote unquote good guys that when you take a step back, you're like,

37:06

37 minutes, 6 seconds

"Wait, wait, hold on." They're doing a lot of the same things, right? And Dn D in particular, any tabletop art, well,

37:15

37 minutes, 15 seconds

not any, but a lot of tabletop RPGs play in those

37:21

37 minutes, 21 seconds

realms of hyperbole that make it okay to be kind of close to that

37:30

37 minutes, 30 seconds

line already in the name of being the good guy.

37:34

37 minutes, 34 seconds

There is a whole discussion that we do need to have at some point about how Dungeons and Dragons is fundamentally a conservative game,

37:42

37 minutes, 42 seconds

right?

37:44

37 minutes, 44 seconds

I'm not ready to have that conversation right now.

37:46

37 minutes, 46 seconds

No, that's a whole other twohour episode. But there's a lot of stuff with

37:52

37 minutes, 52 seconds

like the like uber mench and like singular responsibility and like the the

37:59

37 minutes, 59 seconds

economic responsibility and the othering that happens through like the the racial and class traits. There's a lot

38:08

38 minutes, 8 seconds

there's a lot that we could go into about how Dungeons and Dragons in particular, not all role playing, but Dungeons and Dragons in particular is a very conservative game. Sure.

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38 minutes, 16 seconds

So, okay, let's let's crack through these don'ts. So, right,

38:21

38 minutes, 21 seconds

don't make them cool via aesthetics alone at all. I mean, you can make them look cool.

38:27

38 minutes, 27 seconds

Yeah, you can Hugo boss them, but they shouldn't be like the cool people.

38:32

38 minutes, 32 seconds

The thing with the Hugo Boss thing. Yeah.

38:36

38 minutes, 36 seconds

Is that they looked cool and were very obviously evil. Right. Right.

38:43

38 minutes, 43 seconds

Like, Right. I don't know how they got that past like the focus groups in

38:50

38 minutes, 50 seconds

Germany of just like, you know, I don't Is the skull with the lightning really the thing? Like is that the direction we want to go with?

38:57

38 minutes, 57 seconds

I was going to say the slim cut, the sharp leather, the death head skull.

39:02

39 minutes, 2 seconds

Like that's quite an accessory to pull off. Um, okay.

39:08

39 minutes, 8 seconds

Other thing you don't do, don't frame them as misunderstood or just scared.

39:13

39 minutes, 13 seconds

We're hearing this a lot south of us right now about how these people are just like, "Oh, you know, they're just looking for blah blah." No, no, don't

39:21

39 minutes, 21 seconds

you cannot make them sympathetic or in any way. Um, you can't center their feelings. You can't give them redemption

39:30

39 minutes, 30 seconds

arcs. You can you can maybe give one of them a redemption arc in a follow-up campaign, but in the campaign where they

39:37

39 minutes, 37 seconds

are the bad guys, like unless that person has to face some actual consequences for being a Nazi.

39:45

39 minutes, 45 seconds

Yeah.

39:46

39 minutes, 46 seconds

Um you can't you can't like I I could see a scenario where in the future you you know the Nazis have

39:54

39 minutes, 54 seconds

been eradicated. you find a guy in the woods living as a hermit and it turns out, you know, he used to be one of them, but like bad things happen to him

40:02

40 minutes, 2 seconds

and then he's he goes through a redemption arc. Like it's I'm just imagining like 30 years from

40:10

40 minutes, 10 seconds

now somebody in a campaign finding like Cletus the Slack Jud Yoko in like the Louisiana Bayou being like, "Hey, did

40:18

40 minutes, 18 seconds

you finally get rid of all them immigrants?"

40:24

40 minutes, 24 seconds

Them them trans people still woken people. is that um and then the other thing you can't do

40:30

40 minutes, 30 seconds

is treat their ideology as a morally neutral, you know, other side of the coin. Well, you know, I'm just, you

40:38

40 minutes, 38 seconds

know, we're just want to hear both sides. Don't both sides them at all.

40:43

40 minutes, 43 seconds

There is no both sides that there is the the group that wants their side to be the only side.

40:51

40 minutes, 51 seconds

Yeah. And everyone else.

40:54

40 minutes, 54 seconds

Yeah. And like that there's room for some nuance in the everything else, but if the only thing that is allowed to

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41 minutes, 3 seconds

exist is your side is your ideology that you're just wrong. Yeah. You're just incorrect. So,

41:11

41 minutes, 11 seconds

um, what do you do? You show the harm they cause. Yes.

41:15

41 minutes, 15 seconds

Even if it's offscreen. No, I think this is I think it's even more important when you're talking specifically about like a Nazi coded villain is to show a bigger

41:24

41 minutes, 24 seconds

picture of the damage that they're causing. And you don't have to do it graphically,

41:29

41 minutes, 29 seconds

right? Like I I think that there is a a instinct that I don't want to shy away

41:36

41 minutes, 36 seconds

from necessarily, but like there's an immediate instinct to show the death camps, right? There's immediate instinct to show

41:44

41 minutes, 44 seconds

the human cost of this, but there are subtler ways to do that. Yeah. Empty streets. Yeah.

41:50

41 minutes, 50 seconds

You know, ghettos where the only people that live there now are wind, right? Do an entire village that's just ghosts and they're all one ethnic group.

42:00

42 minutes

Yeah. Right.

42:02

42 minutes, 2 seconds

Uh but you have to show the harm. You have to show the the actual cost that this ideology is bringing to bear or

42:11

42 minutes, 11 seconds

you're not really going to get the full effect of like these are people that we only stab.

42:16

42 minutes, 16 seconds

Yeah. Um you need to like this plays into your idea here that their ideology needs to actively reduce the world.

42:24

42 minutes, 24 seconds

needs to take something away from it.

42:27

42 minutes, 27 seconds

Whether it's an entire species, uh, or whether it's, you know, something as simple as like hearing kids playing outside, you know. Um,

42:37

42 minutes, 37 seconds

how long do you think it would take for a player group to realize that they've never seen a halfling in this campaign?

42:46

42 minutes, 46 seconds

It might take a while. I guess it kind of depends. Like are you the kind of

42:53

42 minutes, 53 seconds

person who like actively DMs with like uh uh diversity in mind? Like this world

43:01

43 minutes, 1 second

is rich and full of multi Well, no, this is hypothetical. Not you. Okay. But but like No, not you. But as a DM, are you the

43:09

43 minutes, 9 seconds

kind of person who like litters your world with with the different races that are available from the source books and then has them play active parts and it's

43:18

43 minutes, 18 seconds

a m sort of multicultural society or you know that like something that Dark Sun naturally did was it had that like

43:25

43 minutes, 25 seconds

ghettoization of uh elves who just ran in herds across the desert. You didn't really see them in town. Um that is

43:34

43 minutes, 34 seconds

something that you kind of need to communicate to the the group that like it is unusual to like not see this group

43:44

43 minutes, 44 seconds

of pe to not see a specific group of people or that like their numbers have been dwindling over time and and people

43:53

43 minutes, 53 seconds

see them less and less. They don't really know why. Um, and then obviously you can use the just the overt like,

43:58

43 minutes, 58 seconds

hey, if you see an elf, report it to uh the guard because you know they've

44:05

44 minutes, 5 seconds

escaped or whatever. Like yeah, I I think like halflings in particular are a

44:14

44 minutes, 14 seconds

intriguing choice for that because there's nothing else that fits their houses. Yeah. Yeah.

44:19

44 minutes, 19 seconds

Right. like that you could depending on how diverse you go with the population you could start seeing like more desirable groups going into those areas.

44:29

44 minutes, 29 seconds

Sure.

44:30

44 minutes, 30 seconds

But like halflings are halfling sized and so halfling houses are halfling house sized usually and so if you have

44:37

44 minutes, 37 seconds

an entire ghetto of halflings that's just empty. Oh I okay I wonder if you could not halflings specifically but

44:46

44 minutes, 46 seconds

maybe like dwarves like where it's like you see other people

44:53

44 minutes, 53 seconds

living in houses that are clearly just not quite the right dimensions for them but no one who is like oh it's weird

45:01

45 minutes, 1 second

that like everyone in this neighborhood ducks going through their doors. Why don't they just make the doors taller, you know? Right. Stuff like that.

45:09

45 minutes, 9 seconds

A bunch of humans living in dwarf houses. Yeah.

45:12

45 minutes, 12 seconds

Yeah. Um um you need to create resistance that feels joyful, right? Like I I think this

45:21

45 minutes, 21 seconds

is something that um Englorious Bastards did very very well.

45:24

45 minutes, 24 seconds

Yeah, I was going to say that's that's the first thing that came to mind.

45:27

45 minutes, 27 seconds

Yep. Go go go get yourself some Nancy Scalps and like everybody's having a good time killing Nazis

45:35

45 minutes, 35 seconds

and you have to you have to make that feel like it is the right choice, right?

45:39

45 minutes, 39 seconds

Because again, there is that storytelling instinct to try and find the good in everyone.

45:48

45 minutes, 48 seconds

Right.

45:49

45 minutes, 49 seconds

And you can't do that if you're busy stabbing. Yeah.

45:54

45 minutes, 54 seconds

Right. So, you have to make the resistance against that feel joyful. You need to have celebrations. Star Wars,

46:01

46 minutes, 1 second

too, great job of making the resistance feel like a thing you want to be a part of.

46:07

46 minutes, 7 seconds

Yeah. I mean they they definitely made a point of showing them not just winning but celebrating their wins. You know between the medal ceremony, the the

46:16

46 minutes, 16 seconds

dance party, you know, the the individual characters in Star Wars have more times where they are just like

46:25

46 minutes, 25 seconds

expressing joy, you know, from cheering at the things that their friends do to,

46:31

46 minutes, 31 seconds

you know, celebrating, you know, returns of people that you thought you might never see again, things like that.

46:37

46 minutes, 37 seconds

Well, and just brilliant to make the empire a bunch of emotionless masks. Yeah.

46:44

46 minutes, 44 seconds

Right. Like they can't express emotion if they want to. Yeah.

46:48

46 minutes, 48 seconds

Right. Um and then portraying solidarity as a real counterforce. So, right,

46:56

46 minutes, 56 seconds

it's what one of the things that fascism and Nazis do is they divide people, right? They create those out groups.

47:04

47 minutes, 4 seconds

They very specifically build foundations that make it difficult or impossible to

47:10

47 minutes, 10 seconds

reach across lines and be together in your resistance. Mhm.

47:17

47 minutes, 17 seconds

And having that work as a counterforce to the

47:25

47 minutes, 25 seconds

separation, work as a counterforce to the dehumanization,

47:30

47 minutes, 30 seconds

reaching across and grabbing a hold of somebody's humanity and pulling them back into the fold is very very powerful.

47:38

47 minutes, 38 seconds

Yeah. I mean, you know, I hate to reach into the Star Wars bucket again, but

47:44

47 minutes, 44 seconds

like using the um uniformity of the Empire as sort of their weakness where,

47:52

47 minutes, 52 seconds

you know, you can clearly see from the start that the the rebellion is eclectic. Theel the rebellion is

47:59

47 minutes, 59 seconds

multicultural. Um the rebellion is about like any multicultural society using the strengths of each society to their

48:08

48 minutes, 8 seconds

fullest effect as opposed to like you know being uh as opposed to conforming

48:15

48 minutes, 15 seconds

to like what one ideology touts to be the best way to do things. Um, so yeah,

48:22

48 minutes, 22 seconds

have your have your resistance incorporate elements from various groups that uh that do things that no one else

48:29

48 minutes, 29 seconds

can that might be seen as like weird or improper by the the the Nazis.

48:36

48 minutes, 36 seconds

I'm actually really surprised that it took us this long to get to Star Wars.

48:41

48 minutes, 41 seconds

Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, talk talk about just I mean, they they are in the face

48:47

48 minutes, 47 seconds

with their na Nazi analogies, but uh I guess they also use it to kind of sell like as much as like the new trilogies

48:55

48 minutes, 55 seconds

are a mess. Um selling the idea that like Ben Solo was not fully fully

49:03

49 minutes, 3 seconds

uh Darth whatever yet. That's why he never got the Darth Title. his emotions and the fact that he wasn't able to

49:11

49 minutes, 11 seconds

fully, you know, conform and fit in in that way, that he always had that like outsiderism, that that weirdness to him,

49:19

49 minutes, 19 seconds

um, helped sell the idea that he wouldn't that he would eventually turn away from the dark side and it didn't work.

49:29

49 minutes, 29 seconds

No, maybe kind it was bad.

49:31

49 minutes, 31 seconds

Yeah. No, don't get me wrong, it was clunky, but you can give them that sort of olive branch of like, all right,

49:37

49 minutes, 37 seconds

well, you you tried to kind of, you know, whatever.

49:41

49 minutes, 41 seconds

Even just the fact that Hux is a redhead and you're like, oh, that doesn't fit in.

49:47

49 minutes, 47 seconds

What What do you mean there's gingers in my Star Wars? Yeah.

49:53

49 minutes, 53 seconds

If there's if there's a group of people who does not make it to outer space, it's you.

49:57

49 minutes, 57 seconds

Hey, thanks for making it all the way through this episode of No Plotton Only Lore. If you're looking for more, you can always find us at noplotonlore.com

50:05

50 minutes, 5 seconds

and on all the very best podcast platforms.

50:09

50 minutes, 9 seconds

If you like what you heard today, please share, rate, and review the show to feed my never- ending need for attention and validation.