Table Apocalypses and Chaos Goblins

Description

In this episode of No Plot, Only Lore, DMs Josh and Chris explore what happens when the dice, the players, or the DM’s own ego send a campaign spiraling into a "table apocalypse." The guys kick things off with a detour into the "bad old days" of Nerdcore hip-hop, debating the flow of MC Frontalot versus rappers who actually know their music theory.

The heart of the episode tackles the moments where games go off the rails:

• The Lone Wolf Disaster: Josh recounts a cringeworthy "main character syndrome" moment from the year 2000 involving a level 3 rogue, a rowboat, and a total party kill.

• The "Session 0.5" Solution: Why the initial session zero rarely survives first contact with the plot, and the importance of checking in mid-campaign to see who the characters have actually become.

• Interpersonal vs. Mechanical Friction: How to tell if your table is struggling because of 3.5 grappling rules or because two players legitimately can't stand each other.

• The "Goblins?" Safety Net: A deep dive into the philosophy of the backup plan—specifically, using a sudden goblin ambush as a tactical distraction to force teamwork when things get grumpy.

From accidentally playing a "good cop" in a party of dirty cops to characters inspired by Gwyneth Paltrow's "Goop," learn how to embrace the liminal space of storytelling and roll with the punches—even when those punches come from a dragon turtle in an underground lake.

Transcript

You're listening to No Plot Only Lore, a

podcast about games and the tables we play them at. Your DMs tonight and every night are Josh and Chris. You can find

us on all podcast platforms or check us out at noplotonlylore.com. If you like what you

hear today, please rate and review the show and share it with everyone you've ever met.

Welcome back to no plot only lore. First choice of internet gooners. Uh you know

what? Well, you know what? Yeah. Yeah, it is. I've

I've never heard that from the Gooner community. Oh, I uh

as as goar adjacent as I am, I've been made aware that like there's something

about the timber of our voices that uh really just does it for some people. You

know, I have heard that um not necessarily from the Goonar community, but um right part of the reason we even

have this podcast is because a bunch of people that I talked to at work were like, "You have a great voice for a podcast." And I was like, "Yeah, okay."

I I totally understand where you're coming from with that because like I used to get that back when I played World of Warcraft a lot was just like

people being like, "Oh, you Yeah, you really, you know, you got that kind of voice." I'm like, "I don't please don't talk to me. I don't want to hear that.

We're playing World of Warcraft. I know you're a nerd."

Well, now we're working with like actual professionals. Yeah. Yeah. That's

intimidating. just one one of our co-workers um has a radio career in the

past. So listening to him on comms is an interesting experience.

He's uh I'd say he if anyone at work has more of a radio voice, it's probably

him. That being said, I mean I also used to work in radio. So I never worked in

radio. I've only ever volunteered. Oh, okay. Um, one of the people that we used to

play with actually, Jamie, um, had a radio show that he did on, um,

like the the university. Yeah. UFA had like a radio show that they did. Y and

so he invited me over to do like a couple of episodes about specifically geek music. Okay.

as I was apparently the closest thing to an expert that he could find for that. Oh, good.

But a lot of MC friend a lot is that was the time. Yeah, those are the bad old

days. Nerdcore hiphop. I've really like

turned the corner on MC front a lot like in a negative way.

I I used to be like as someone who's just always been like generally very

into hip-hop. I had a brief infatuation with him. And

then lately I and like I'm trying not to be hyperbolic here, but I genuinely have

the same reaction to like his music as I do to like the Big Bang Theory. I

understand like he is far more of a legitimate nerd. Um it feels the same to

me. That's right. It it it's got that like it's got a very like hello fellow

kids vibe to me. The thing that I always found interesting about frontalot in

particular, and just as like a I don't want to make claims to be a hip-hop head

or anything, but like I do have an appreciation for hip-hop. Um, his flow

was so unique. It is awful, but it's also so unique. Like, no, nobody else was doing

those like very strange pauses and like [ __ ] with the meter the way that he

does. and like it he had a lot of like weirdly offtempo

uh kind of off-putting flows. Off is definitely the word I would use. Yeah. And I I found

that intriguing, right? Like there there was a charisma to it that I found intriguing. Uh it gets old real fast.

Yeah. It gets old because you soon realize, oh, this guy just can't

actually rap. Um yeah, he was It wasn't a choice that he made on purpose. Yeah,

he he was hiding his lack of actual like hiphop ability with

like Yeah. odd word flow. Um

and that quickly became apparent to me when I was just like, "Oh, this is like this is you." How do I explain this? He

did not know how to like use his voice as an instrument the way that your

average rapper would. So, he hid that behind a disjointed

flow. And like I I kind of get where that played into the character that he

was trying to present where he's just like he he is awkward and so his flow is

awkward. Um, but at the same time, like I can only put up with so many songs that have

that same flow. Yes. Before I start to get bored. Um, so yeah, I mean like I

don't listen to any of his new stuff. So yeah, and I refuse to as well. But like

like thinking of like rappers that I respect and know who have like like if

you look at um okay there's a guy I follow right now Masbo Q

who uses odd time signatures in his raps

but he's such a like music theory nerd that you know he's doing it on purpose.

like as opposed to just like, well, I I kind of have to do this cuz I don't have any other choice, right? Um, and like,

don't get me wrong, I I love when rappers play with time signatures, but they're playing with time signatures,

not just like pauses. Well, and there are so many the the the

the raps and the the the rhyming schemes are falling on the time sign. There's, not just like a lack of words.

Right. Well, and there's so many rappers that also have like the the same awkward

character quality without having a shitty flow. Yes.

Right. Like somebody like Ski Mask, the frontman, the the slump god, has like a an awkward flow a lot of the time, but

he's proven that he can flow really [ __ ] hard whenever he wants to. And

does have like a bunch of different pockets that he sits in over the course of his songs. And the awkwardness is

something that he has put on on purpose. Yeah. and not just something that he has to do

because it's the only way he knows how to rap. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So, anyways, enough [ __ ] on

front a lot. Um Yeah. Yeah. So, uh what is the worst table apocalypse that you

have ever had to deal with when everything has just gone terribly, terribly wrong?

Oh jeez. I haven't been a part of a lot of table apocalypses

because well, frankly, I'm usually the agent of the apocalypse.

Um, let me think here. Like I've I've been in plenty of

situations that just like went poorly, but I don't know if I' if I've ever called one an apocalypse because

like Yeah. Like it was it's most of our apocalypses tend to be like

very local. Like one guy is having a really bad day. The whole table is more

or less okay, but like one guy had a really bad day, I guess. Oh, you know what? We did have one. There was one

that we had where we were going on some sort of like adventure into a

uh underground jail system

and I don't know if it was a lack of communication or just like planning or what, but there was this

like dragon turtle hidden in an underground lake and it absolutely wrecked are [ __ ]

Like in a way that nothing has sense. Okay. I I am also often the agent of

chaos. Um and my my table apocalypse is a bit more of a social nature. Mhm.

Where like the the one that I'm thinking of uh this was

2000 the year 2000. The year 2000

in Lethbridge, Alberta. I stopped into a

local comic shop that had like dropin games. Mhm. And it had been a long time since I had

played and I had never played with anybody who was doing like strictly by the book encounters, okay, before,

right? Like everybody that I had played with at up until that point was very much like us. A lot of like improvisation and um like willing to

roll with whatever it was we were doing. And so I had a very different idea about

how my player character was going to be interacting with this world. I built myself a rogue. I had like a cool rogue

backstory. I was level three, so I was feeling like a major badass. And the

story that I walked into was that there was a a ship that had taken some slaves

from the local town and we were trying to figure out how to get them back, but

there was a time limit on it. And the DM, I guess, was planning for this to

turn into a chase of some sort, like we were going to like get our own boat and we were going to go and hunt them down

or whatever. Um, I decided to lone wolf it like an [ __ ] Like you do, like I

do. And because I I need the spotlight to be on me at all times. Um, so I took

a rowboat out to the boat where the slaves were and tried to take them all down by myself because I was a badass

assassin. Where did that go? Uh, all of my

companions rode out to try and help me when they realized that I was missing and had gone rogue.

Um, and then we all [ __ ] died and then I was never invited back to that table. And did you learn your lesson?

Uh, no. That's a no. That's a big old no. No, I

did not learn my lesson from that at all. I am still I wonder why

occasionally I I still occasionally suffer from main character syndrome. Uh

does sound like you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I decided I was just going to go Nuto that entire [ __ ] ship. And uh

that was before Naruto existed. So nobody knew what the [ __ ] I was doing. So you're an innovator. You're a groundbreaker.

I'm just here to Ninetales fox all up on your [ __ ] And all the pirates were like, "We don't know what that is." God,

don't don't ever say that. It was the year 2000 and I was freshly out of being

a small town nerd, right? Hadn't quite made the transition to like big city

nerd yet. The old big city nerds as they were.

Man, there's a movie in there somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like

So yeah, no. Um, there have been a few occasions where I've had like some major

blowups at tables. People get pretty invested in their games and emotions do

occasionally run pretty hot. Yeah. Especially when some goon shows up and just decides to lonewolf it, leaving you

stranded. Yeah. Yeah. And they really needed a rogue for that adventure. So, uh,

I hope they found one.

That's that's the great irony of rogues is when you need to find one, there's just, you know, nowhere to be seen.

Yeah. Hiding in plain sight somewhere, maybe. We think. Yeah. So, how do you usually deal with

like when things take a weird turn at your table?

Um that really personally comes down to like the type of weird turn. There are I

think for me there there are two weird turns. Um there's the intended weird

turn which is often driven by players and there's the weird turn which is often driven by the dice.

Um, I I think I'm much better about

handling unintended weird turns than I am with intended weird turns. And I say that because I think the intended weird

turns often wind up just being so much worse.

Um, yeah. What do you mean by that? I mean, the

people the people who want weird crazy things to happen go above and beyond to be as

crazy as possible. And my brain just doesn't work like that

all the time, especially when I'm playing Dungeons and Dragons. Um, okay.

I like to Well, yeah. Not just because I'm the [ __ ] heel that

would be doing it in the first place, but like that is exactly the way that my brain works all the time is just like

here's a new situation. Let's problem solve it right away, right? Um so if somebody shows up and they want to get

with the weirdness, I will Yes. And the [ __ ] out of that. Yeah.

Uh yeah. Yeah. I I haven't mastered the no butt. Um like the H. Is that true?

Hold on. Now I have to do some self-reflection. No, even when I'm doing

like even when I'm shutting somebody down on a thing, I'm not really shutting them down. I'm just clarifying the

situation. Like I am providing more context for their decision-m and then I will Yes. whatever it is that you want.

Um, so yeah, for for me, a lot of those like

the the interpersonal type shenanigans where like somebody shows up and like kicks a horn in its

nest and like riles up the other players that I usually find a little easier to

deal with than like mechanical problems. Okay.

Like it's really hard to try and tell an

interesting narrative where people are doing weird things when the dice just refuse to cooperate, right? Or the rule

set that you're working with is just the [ __ ] worst. Yeah, I can understand that.

Um, so yeah, I think like the first thing for me whenever stuff is going weird is I I kind of want to pause and

like sort out what the nature of the conflict is, right? Right. Like is it is it the game system itself? Like do we do

we need to house rule a thing? Right. Um, is it that two of the players just

[ __ ] hate each other? That happens. It does often. It's usually me that is

the subject of the hating. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or is it just like Okay, so I have a

note here for like narrative. The players veer off the story, but again, there is no like veering off the story.

The story is what the players are telling me it is. Sure. I I'm here to facilitate whatever it is that they're

doing. So, I I don't give a [ __ ] about that. But, I understand that a lot of people do have like an idea of what the story is that they're trying to tell.

And you get that like classic situation of, oh, there's a dragon in the woods

and we got to go deal with that dragon. And then the player characters like, hey, have you guys ever considered like

starting a honey farm the next town over? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But like to me, both of those sound great. Like we can go and deal with the dragon, but if you guys are more

interested in this honey farm, well, [ __ ] it. Let's find an apiary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So yeah, I don't know. Fig figuring out what it is. It's usually pretty easy to

tell, right? Like is somebody being an [ __ ] Do

the players seem like legitimately angry? Yeah. Or is it just that nobody's

rolled over a seven today? Right. Yeah. I I I

mean I I I've guess I probably owe it to my

improv background where like I just straight up find it easier to be like, "Okay, things didn't go right, but you

know, here's a funny way to resolve that or whatever and then I can just kind of get along with my game."

Um as opposed to like the Chaos Goblins.

I Yeah. Like I I legitimately think that you and I would have like some real

problems if we were playing in the same game. Like I've been in games that you're running and those are different.

But I think if we were playing in the same game, we like we would have some strong discussions.

There would be some butting of heads. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we both need to be the main character and that doesn't work.

I don't need to be the main character. You should be productive. Okay. Yeah, that's not going to work

when I'm meeting the main character, which is my problem. Exactly.

I mean, yeah, I'm playing it up for like the sake of discussion. Like I I have

definitely calm down. It's actually kind of funny since I've started DMing. Yeah.

Um which like many many years ago. Um, one of the things that I've started

to do is try and take a backseat whenever I'm playing, right? Like, it's

hard for me, don't get me wrong. It's really [ __ ] hard. But unless the spotlight is directly on

me, I try not to speak, right? Just let the other players do what they're doing

and I'm just here again to facilitate like I'm trying to help the DM do whatever it is that they're trying to do.

Um, it would be a bit different if like like I think if you and I were in the

same group, I think I would probably be a bit more of a chaos goblin just because I would trust that you have the experience to handle it. Yeah. Which I

mean, just because you have the experience doesn't mean you have the desire. Yeah. Experience and desire are

beautiful things. Uh um okay. So I yeah, I've played I will

say with a lot of Chaos Goblins and yeah, the only ones that really bother

me are ones that are truly chaotic. Like I don't mind if if you're a little wacky

and zany, but if it's really just like [ __ ] with things like for no good reason, that's what actually like gets

my goat as it were. Okay, that's that's very different from like even me when

I'm like putting the spotlight on myself. That's very different. Like I I have a tendency to like get real into my

characters. So if my character is a chaos goblin, then I'm going to be a chaos goblin. But I usually don't

gravitate towards those characters. Oddly, my favorite type of character to play is a straight man. Okay. Right.

Like I I love playing like the stoic um serious dogooder. Like I [ __ ] love a

paladin. I love a paladin. Like a lot of taken a

thousand% as is, right? Like as written. I'm just I am a holy warrior. I am very

serious about what I'm doing. I have zero sense of humor. Just like that. That is a

character archetype that I do enjoy playing. Yeah. Um more than I think

might seem plausible based on the way that I handle the podcast stuff.

So, um, but that has occasionally caused some conflict too where like me

being a stoic like cop type character in

a game that had a lot of criminal activity in it put me at odds with other

players and did cause like some some table conflict where they were trying to

accomplish a thing and I was getting in their way because my character as the lawful good paladin character that I am

would not stand for that happening. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, and see, I I would

even 100% put the blame like there obviously there's some blame to be put at your feet, but the the other part of

it too is like the DM at that table that that should have been like a

part of session zero is like establishing this is going to be a fairly chaotic party. This is going to

be a party that is up to no good. Do you want to like revisit your character idea

knowing that you are going to be at odds with most of the things that we're doing and most of the people that we're

playing with? And like as a DM, do I feel confident that you can do that in a

fun and interesting way that's not just being a pain in the ass for the people who are trying to play their characters

as as written, right? Yeah. Well, and I think part of it was like in that

specific instance, um the the game was described to me as us playing cops, and

I didn't realize how many of those cops were meant to be dirty cops. Yeah.

Right. Like I I was the only non- dirty cop in our crew, which right narratively

is very interesting, right? There's a lot of really great space that you can play with there. But when you've got

other people at the table who want to be stabbing vampires because they're

vampires and you are playing the good cop, you're like, "Hold on, guys. There's due process, right?" Like they

may be blood sucking monsters, but they also have rights. Yeah. They're blood sucking monsters, but we don't have to

be. Yeah. So like again like narratively I think that's something that's very

interesting to possibly play with but it's it's a delicate line and causes a

lot of uh grief. Grief if not handled correctly. So So what do you do? What do

you do if everything just kind of goes off the rails? [ __ ] I don't know man.

Uh great. No. like in a non- joking way like like

I my intention is always to move the game forward, right?

Um if things aren't going 100% correct, that's fine as long as like

there's some sort of interesting progression. Um, it's kind of one of those like, you

know, God closes the door, but he opens a window sort of approaches to DMing. Mhm. Where, yeah, okay, you've you've

shut down this avenue, but maybe that's going to introduce you to a more, I don't know, interesting side character

who's going to help you, you know, with with a hidden back door or whatever it

is, right? Yeah. you you bungled your attempts at seducing the guards. But um

yeah, I don't know. Maybe maybe a local uh nobleman's son thought it was so

funny he you know agrees to to help you. I don't know. Whatever.

Whatever. Right. Just when you said bundling your attempt to seduce the guards, my first thought was that one of

the guards just wants to be friends. My my actually my actual first thought

was the sketch with sketch with Brennan Lee Mulligan and Zakoyama where Oh yeah.

The the natural 20 and the natural one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. You're a

bunch of dogs. Are you Sarah's dog?

Oh man. Yeah. Um I think for me like again depending on the type of problem

that we're dealing with I have kind of a couple of approaches to it. Okay. Um if

it's interpersonal then as the DM I will usually approach each of the people that

is involved separately and try and get an idea of what it is that they're

looking for from the next session, right? so that we can start to figure

out like commonalities and where we can go from there. Um, if it's something

mechanical, yeah, at this point, pretty much every game

that I play runs the same. Okay. I I am

perfectly happy to come up with a a rule on the fly. Yeah. for how to mitigate

problems mechanically. Like the for for D and D, it is almost

always appropriate to put a plus two or a negative -2 on a roll and just [ __ ] call it. Like yeah, you don't have to

make it weird. You don't have to like sit down and figure out what the grappling rules are on 3.5. Just roll a

[ __ ] check and we'll we'll go from there. Yeah. Yeah. We we'll get on. We'll figure it out. Yeah. We we will look up the real rules later. Yeah. But

for right now, just roll me a check. Yeah. Um and then

for anything that's like story based. Yeah. Um I like to have.5 sessions. Okay.

Occasionally where we kind of revisit session zero. Okay. Right. Because like

one of the things that I find with session zero is that it's like it's held up as this like beacon for communication

and making sure that everybody's on the same page for stuff, but it only happens once. Yeah. And that first interaction

with the campaign Mhm. isn't going to survive the rest of the campaign. Yeah.

Right. Like you have this idea of how the campaign is going to go. You have an idea of your character motivations and

then you actually start playing those characters and you realize that they are going in a very different direction than

you thought they were. Yeah. So what do you do about that? You got to pull back. You got to have another like session in

the middle and be like, "Okay, so who are these characters?" Yeah. On like session 3.5, session 5.5, right? And

start to work out all of the same things that you would in a session zero again with more information about who these

characters are. Yeah. I will say like to to quote someone smarter than me, uh,

everyone has a plan to get punched in the face, right? Like it's it's all well and good to have your session zeros, but

yeah, like you said, um, things change and people's perceptions of their own

characters changes very quickly. um and how those characters interact with the

world changes, you know, almost instantly is once once they have to sort of confront the reality of what what is

going on. So, um as soon as they meet that one NPC, man. Yeah. Like every

every game seems to have that NPC that nobody actually like thought was going to be a thing. Yeah. And then they turn

into a thing. Yeah. Like my most recent Dn D campaign had a

character that everybody just kind of fell in love with and he was just a giant [ __ ] himbo.

Like I wasn't planning on him being anything. He was just there to like provide a clue and then move on. But

everybody just fell in love with him so he showed up for like six more sessions. Yep. Yeah. I'm trying to think if we had

anyone like that in our campaign. like we had we definitely had like there is a character in this current group

that I I don't want to say her her motivations are mercurial but they are

definitely unorthodox and so yeah every once in a while she just kind of like latches on

to an idea like um the character is is largely based on Gwennneth Paltro um Oh

no yeah yeah it's exactly what you think it is.

Um, which is fine. Like straight up, it's fine. It's just like every once in

a while she gets these like goopy ideas in her brain and you just kind of have

to roll with it. M and that often extends to like yeah just NPCs she has

latched on to or interactions that she wants to have in character with NPCs that serve no real endgame function

other than to like I guess just increase her engagement.

Um but yeah like like you said like you get these hey I didn't think this was going to be a thing and then suddenly

it's the biggest thing. I've actually had that when writing

which is just the [ __ ] weirdest. Like I would occasionally hear people

talk about they they were like writing a book and the book got away from them. I was like how could that happen? You are

in charge of the words. That that is my I think I think I may even brought

brought this up to you at one point where I was like how does someone go into writing a book and be like wow I

didn't know my character was going to do that when everything that character does is dictated by your

hand. Well like one of the interesting things about writing for me is that as

I'm writing I get kind of into the same liinal space that I do when I'm reading. Uhhuh. Right. And so the story is kind

of happening in my head as I'm typing it out. And so the words are happening. Like I can see the words that are

happening on the page, but the story itself is actually like playing itself out like a movie. And so I'm just kind

of following along with what's going on in that movie. Okay. And I recognize that that is my imagination that is

pushing me in various directions, but occasionally it pushes me in directions that I was not expecting. Right. Right.

So, like I have a cardboard cut out of a character who was just supposed to get somebody from space A to space B. Yeah.

And now that character is the love interest for the rest of the [ __ ] story.

I guess. I guess wasn't expecting that to happen, but like I was watching the

movie that was happening in my head and she was like, "Hey, giving him the side eye." And he was like, "Hey, what?" I don't know. I still have a hard time

buying it. Like I'll be I'll be honest. I'm just very skeptical about that idea

of letting your imagination get away from you in that way.

It isn't entirely like getting away from me. Like I I could stop and pull back and like force the story to go in a

direction, but when I do that, I lose the flow, right? And then it feels forced. It

feels forced and the words coming out don't work and I don't know what's going to happen next because it isn't just flowing the same way that it was before,

right? So, I've just found it a lot easier to just let my words happen as

they're happening and then I'll go back and edit it. Right. But yeah, and then uh I think probably

the last thing I'm going to touch on for like when everything goes to [ __ ]

is you should always have a backup plan. Uhhuh.

Like on your notes, just write goblins question mark.

Okay. And then no matter what is going on, no matter what badness is happening at your table, you always have Goblins

question mark to fall back on. Yeah. Right. If the players seem like they're

bored, throw goblins at them. I guess that's one option. Yeah. If the players

are starting to like get a little grumpy with each other, you have goblins. They

may not be the answer to that problem, but you do have goblins. They are a distraction. Just straight up

a distraction. They are a straightup distraction. They get everybody back on the same page. You've got a combat encounter to do. So, people are going to

have to like initiate team work, right? It's again not the best solution to the

problem, but like having a backup plan, whatever that backup plan happens to be, having like another story line that you

could run with, having um like different locations from the ones that you were planning. The characters don't want to

go into the big scary swamp where the dragon lives. Cool. the dragon now lives in the nice shiny forest where the the players actually did go, right? Having

those things in your back pocket is really going to help uh mitigate those problems before they happen.

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